The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government

Good afternoon. Welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government. The first question today is from Hefin David.

Income Tax

Hefin David AC: 1. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the potential impact of increasing the basic rate of income tax in Wales? OQ59146

Rebecca Evans AC: Raising the basic rate would add additional costs on those less able to afford it at a time when the UK Government has frozen income tax thresholds, dragging lower earners into the income tax system.

Hefin David AC: I think the key point made by the Minister there is that, at the time, I think income tax is something that should be revisited in the future, but she's absolutely right to say that this is not the time for it. Last week, we saw an amendment to the Welsh Government's budget by Plaid Cymru that would have cost people on the basic rate £2.47 a week extra, during a cost-of-living crisis. Personally, my view is that the co-operation agreement should not have allowed that amendment to be put, given that it covers the budget, and it was disappointing to see that that happened outside the co-operation agreement. We should see Plaid Cymru taking responsibility for the power they have in the Senedd Chamber. Would the Minister be willing, though, to review this position in the future, should economic circumstances allow at some point?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm very grateful to Hefin David for the question, and for raising Welsh rates of income tax this afternoon. And I completely agree with his assessment that it is not the right time, in a cost-of-living crisis, to be asking those who are on the absolute lowest incomes, and indeed those who have been drawn into the income tax system for the very first time, to be paying more. And I think it's well established that, to raise any serious amount of money in order to boost the resources that we have, we would be required to raise the basic rate of income tax. I do think that it has to be done in a considered and strategic way. That said, every single year, we do assess our options, in terms of how we use the Welsh rates of income tax, and we would expect to look afresh again at this issue next year, both in terms of people's overall tax burden and contribution, depending on where things are with the UK Government, and, of course, the wider economic situation that people find themselves in. But, absolutely, it's something that we consider afresh for every budget.

Tom Giffard AS: As we heard from Hefin David there, one of the perils of increasing income tax at a time of financial trouble is the fact that it would be something built on the back of working people across Wales. And it's quite apt, I think, on the day that Nicola Sturgeon resigned as leader of the SNP and First Minister of Scotland, to remember exactly where Plaid Cymru got this idea from, because they devolve a lot of their thinking out to a party from another part of the United Kingdom—the SNP. Because, in Scotland, they're proposing to add 1p onto the higher and top rates of tax, alongside reducing the top rate threshold, from £150,000 to just over £125,000. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has warned that that will spark an exodus of high earners across the border. Scottish business leaders have branded it a disadvantage for Scotland and made clear that it would make competing with the UK for talent much harder. On top of those increases, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities has not ruled out a 10 per cent hike in council taxes there. In a survey, half of all Scots wanted the current system of council tax to end. Another survey showed that one in five Scottish households are currently living in serious financial difficulty, equivalent to 1.2 million people; in the UK overall, it's 17 per cent. That's Plaid's vision for Wales, Minister, and it's a vision that's built on the back of taxing working people. Do you agree with me that that's a totally wrong priority, at the wrong time, from a party that is increasingly out of touch with the people of Wales?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I would gently remind the Member that, under the UK Conservative Government, the tax burden on people in Wales, and across the UK, is now at a 70-year high as a result of the decisions that that Government has made. But I do think that Scottish rates of income tax are very much a matter for the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament, but that doesn't mean that we can't learn from their experiences, which is why we're very interested in the work that HMRC is progressing in terms of developing a longitudinal data set. Now, that hopefully will allow us to have some more detailed analysis of the behavioural impacts of tax changes, including migration responses, and my officials are in frequent contact with HMRC to better understand the possibilities that that work might release.

Bus Services

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 2. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change and the Minister for Social Justice regarding Welsh Government support to ease the financial pressures on scheduled bus services? OQ59129

Rebecca Evans AC: I regularly engage with my Cabinet colleagues on funding issues. In this financial year, we have made available over £110 million of funding to protect and grow bus services right across Wales. The bus emergency scheme has also been extended into the next financial year.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: It's undoubtedly the case, Minister, that cross-Government working, finding the money to put in place the emergency bus support and also extending it now for the next few months has been critical to ensuring the survival of the bus industry in Wales, including independent operators, small family operators and so on that run their businesses. But we know the pressures that your budget is under, but we also do know that this is genuinely a climate justice issue, and it's also a social justice issue, as we keep being told, quite rightly. And we can repeat this endlessly until it gets into people's minds that 80 per cent of those people who use buses have no other alternative. So, can I simply urge—this is not asking for magic money—but can I genuinely urge her, in her discussions with the Minister for Climate Change, and the Minister for Social Justice and Cabinet colleagues, to do all she possibly can to try and find that way that we can keep these bus services going in all our communities—rural and urban Wales. It's vital, going forward, particularly after the announcement yesterday about turning a corner a different way to deal with shifting people to more sustainable travel.

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm grateful for the question and completely agree with the points that are made about bus services being a critical part of our approach to delivering social justice here in Wales, and, of course, an important part of our environmental aspirations as well. I think that our support for the bus industry through the pandemic and now at the other side of the pandemic has been absolutely crucial in terms of maintaining the services that we do have in Wales. But it was a bus emergency scheme, and I think that this level of subsidy is just not sustainable in the long term, which is really why we are looking at reviewing the bus services support grant, to move the industry away from that kind of reliance on the emergency funding to something that is much more stable in the future. And colleagues will be aware of our ambitious plans, in terms of the bus Bill that we aim to bring forward, to bring more control back to local authorities in terms of the services that are provided. So, I think that, really, is the longer term answer, but, in the meantime, our support is really important for the industry.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, I have raised on a number of occasions the plight of residents across my region who have suffered as the result of cuts to scheduled bus services.The most recent issue brought to my attention is a proposal by First Cymru to cut services to Resolven in my region.Many people in Resolven, particularly the elderly, are dependent upon the X7 service, as their nearest post office or bank is over seven miles away. Any reduction in service will have a bad impact on a community like Resolven.I have also been contacted by Neath Port Talbot Council, who are concerned that the Welsh Government’s decision to axe bus emergency scheme 3 funding is leading to the acceleration in cuts to these bus services. If BES3 funding goes, companies operating services within Port Talbot and Neath will deregister most routes within the county borough. Minister, will you reconsider the decision to end BES3 funding and look at other ways to support a struggling bus industry that is so vital to many of our constituents?

Rebecca Evans AC: I would refer the Member to the joint statement on the bus emergency scheme that was issued by the Welsh Government, the Welsh Local Government Association, the Confederation of Passenger Transport and the Coach and Bus Association Cymru last week, which set out that there is now an initial extension of three months, which gives the industry some short-term stability, which it needs while we continue to work with the industry together on planning bus networks that better suit the new travel patterns that we've seen since the end of the pandemic.
Then, I refer back to the point that I made in terms of the bus Bill being the most far-reaching plan across the UK and an absolutely vital step in terms of reversing the damage that we've seen in terms of the deregulation of the bus industry. We want to make sure that people have a service that they can rely on, which is easy to use and which puts people before profit, and that absolutely will be at the heart of our work, going forward. But, of course, legislation doesn't happen overnight, so, in the meantime, we are working, as I say, with the industry to explore what quick improvements can be made to bus passengers' experiences of our buses, and, of course, we have published the Bws Cymru bus plan, which sets out some of these immediate steps.

Cefin Campbell MS: Minister, the disappointing announcement late on Friday night that the emergency funding scheme for operators is only to be extended for three months has not brought the certainty that the industry needs. Alongside rising costs—fuel, maintenance and wages, et cetera—fare-paying patronage levels across Wales have only returned to about 65 per cent of what they were before COVID. I've heard from companies in west Wales who provide these vital scheduled bus services that are concerned that they may no longer be able to operate these vital services, which allow people to attend hospital or GP appointments, to go shopping and interact with the wider world, or even travel to school. A lack of public transport, in rural areas in particular, is damaging to social cohesion and the ability to access public services, so the importance of these services in rural communities in particular cannot be understated. So, what discussions have you had, Minister, with the Deputy Minister for Climate Change regarding the end of the BESand what assessment have you undertaken regarding the impact that ceasing this will have on local authorities and bus companies?

Rebecca Evans AC: I had a meeting just last week with the Deputy Minister for Climate Change and the Minister for Climate Change to discuss this issue and other issues in relation to pressures within the overall transport system. I was pleased that there were some conversations with the traffic commissioner to give the result that the deregistration window has now been temporarily reduced to 28 days. I think the extension to the funding, albeit short term, alongside that 28-day window, now means that there's no need for operators to be making immediate decisions on their future network. However, we will work together closely with the bus industry and other partners, including Transport for Wales, to bring around the strong and sustainable bus network for Wales that we need. But, as you appreciate from the question, I think, it is the Deputy Minister for Climate Change who's leading on those discussions, and I support him in my role as Minister for Finance and Local Government.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. To continue the bus theme, particularly in rural areas, it feels to me like this is one area where investing now and thinking long term can benefit us in Wales, particularly those in rural areas. So, just some buses in Ceredigion that are being affected: the Tregaron circular service, the Penrhyn-coch to Pen-bont Rhydybeddau, and Aberystwyth to Devil's Bridge routes. Three other routes: buses now run less often from Aberystwyth to Ponterwyd, to Penrhyn-coch and to Lampeter via Tregaron. And Mid Wales Travel have just announced the halving of services on three routes from Aberystwyth town centre to the university campus, to Borth and Ynyslas, and the Penparcau circular route as well. These are really affecting communities within our rural areas. It is just another appeal that we look at the budget issues. From the roads review yesterday, I hope we have an opportunity to look at the money saved from cutting road construction to our public transport, particularly bus services. I wonder, with you having the responsibility for the budget, whether you're able to give us any information on next year's budget in terms of supporting and funding our bus services. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm very grateful for the question and also, as Cefin Campbell has done, for recognising the important role that buses play in terms of serving our rural communities in particular. I will ask the Deputy Minister to provide a greater update as those discussions continue because, as I say, he is leading on those discussions, but I think that one thing he would probably want to highlight is the importance of our Fflecsi pilot scheme. Particularly, it's been an important innovation in some rural areas, including schemes in the Conwy valley and in Pembrokeshire, but also in some urban areas, including Newport and smaller towns such as Denbigh and Ruthin. I think there's a lot to learn from those, but, again, that's not something that will be developing at pace overnight, but certainly something I think that has a really important part to play in the longer term.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Peter Fox.

Peter Fox AS: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I'm sure all in this Chamber are relieved that negotiations with our teachers and our NHS unions over revised pay offers are looking promising and have averted further strikes by teachers and any NHS staff for the time being. Let's all hope that the offers will be accepted. But, for weeks, Minister, the Welsh Government had claimed that there's no money, meaning that any proposed pay rise would have been unachievable. So, given the u-turn that the Government has made, Minister, can you share the total amount that these increased pay offers will cost, and where this additional money is going to come from? And can you indicate which service areas will bear the costs and what things are likely to be put on hold as a result?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I share your hope that the members of the unions will now accept the enhanced offer that has been made, which, just to be clear, is over and above the offer that was previously made when we accepted the recommendations of the independent pay review bodies. Our offer is, of course, an additional 3 per cent in this year and 1.5 per cent of that will be consolidated into next year.So, in terms of where we've been able to find the money, I refer colleagues to the second supplementary budget, which we published yesterday. And that sets out that we've allocated £130 million to the health main expenditure group and £35 million to the education MEG in order to cover that payment, should it be accepted within this financial year.
You'll also see from the supplementary budget that we've now drawn down everything that we can within this financial year from the Wales reserve, which is £125 million of revenue. That is not a comfortable position to be in at all—it's certainly not something that I'd intended to do at the start of the year. You'll remember that, when we set our budget for this financial year, it was less than £40 million that we intended to draw down and that was in recognition of the difficult two years that we face, which follow us in terms of the three-year spending review period. So, it's a very difficult situation, I think, now, budgetary wise, but absolutely, it was the right thing to do. So, just to assure you that, when colleagues vote on the supplementary budget, they'll be given cover then for the Welsh Government to spend the money that has been allocated. And also, there might be the underspends, which, obviously, we'll be driving now across different departments between now and the financial year so that we can make sure that we cover the whole of that award.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister—thank you for that clarity. I think it's really important that the Senedd understands the detail. I know that it'll be in the supplementary budget and we look forward to discussing that earlier. There are always opportunity costs when things have to be adjusted like that. So, it's important that we do understand the implications of those decisions.
But, Minister, in a similar vein of understanding the implications of Welsh Government's decisions, you'll be aware that this year marks the entire decade since your Government unilaterally took control of Cardiff Airport. In that time, literally hundreds of millions of taxpayers' money has been poured into the site, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that it's well over £200 million that has been pumped into the airport, both in revenue and capital. This begs the question of what the wasted sums of money could have alternatively been used on over the years—the opportunity costs are colossal. Minister, do you regret the sums of money that your Government have poured into the airport over the last 10 years, and with hindsight, Minister, do you agree with me that it was a poor and costly decision?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, if my colleague, the economy Minister—sorry, the transport Minister—within whose portfolio this sits was answering the question, I'm sure he would refer you to the fact that the airport does have a particular plan to put itself on a sustainable footing for the future. I think it is important that the airport does have a sustainable plan in terms of becoming profitable, but I think it is important that we do have an airport here in Wales in order to service people who live in Wales. What we do have, I think, is a problematic situation where the UK Government seems very much interested, really, in supporting Bristol Airport at the expense of Cardiff Airport. We saw that in the debates that we had in terms of devolving air passenger duty in recent years as well. So, I think that that is of particular concern. But I think it is important that Wales has an airport; it's important that our airport becomes sustainable in the long term.

Peter Fox AS: Well, thank you, again, Minister. I take it from that that you don't regret the investment over the 10 years, albeit that it's a huge amount of money, and I know that many Members in here would have liked to have seen that money spent in many other areas, such as health and education, and we might not have found ourselves in the poor situation we're currently in, but that's where we are. Unfortunately, Minister, examples of lost opportunities under the Government just keep coming up.
And now I turn my attention, finally, to Gilestone Farm, where Audit Wales have raised serious concerns over your Government's decision to spend £4.25 million of taxpayers' money on buying that farm. But only last week in this Chamber, Members of your own back benches openly raised serious concerns over the purchase. Do you agree with them that, in hindsight, once again, the decision to buy the farm was another example of your Government's poor judgment and a financial mistake?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I think what's really clear from the auditor general’s report is that our acquisition of Gilestone Farm, to allow Green Man to develop its plans, was value for money, properly aligned to our economic ambitions, and followed the appropriate processes and approvals. And, to be clear, the report by Audit Wales underscores that the procedural integrity of the acquisition of the farm is not in doubt. The Welsh Government has the legal powers to acquire properties or assets like Gilestone Farm, and professional independent advice was sought as part of the purchase process. And also, the auditor general makes it clear that the advice to Ministers was set in the context of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and our policies to support and further tourism and social and economic regeneration. I think the report also added that the advice sent to Ministers was well rounded, providing six options for Ministers to consider, including the option of not progressing with the policy proposal.
But, of course, no final decision on the future of Gilestone Farm will be made until there is an extensive due diligence process completed and, in the event that the detailed business plan does not meet our Welsh Government requirements or that Green Man does not enter into a prospective commercial lease, the Welsh Government will, of course, still have the farm asset and will be able to consider other options for it.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Last week, Minister, you recall, I'm sure, Plaid Cymru making our case for the further devolution of tax powers, in that instance providing Wales with the ability to set our own income tax bands in line with powers already being exercised in Scotland, of course. Now, unfortunately, you and your colleagues voted down our motion, despite mounting evidence that the current income tax bands, which are, let's not forget, set by the UK Government for Wales, despite them being an exceedingly poor fit for the Welsh tax base. Now, a recent Institute of Welsh Affairs report stated that if you were designing an efficient system of income taxation for Wales, then the bands wouldn't look like they look now.
However, what's also apparent, of course, is that the Welsh Government's current agenda for the further devolution of tax powers, which includes an ambition to establish a vacant land tax is being undermined by a consistent lack of engagement and co-operation from the UK Government. You've described the agreed process for devolution of tax competence to Wales as 'not fit for purpose', so can you tell us, therefore, what recent discussions you've had with the UK Government regarding the review and reform of the process by which new tax powers are devolved? And what recommendations has the Welsh Government made to the UK Government in this regard?

Rebecca Evans AC: So, I was surprised by the response of the leader of Plaid Cymru to my response to his debate last week, because I thought that I was very fair and measured in setting out that it is important for the Welsh Government to understand the proper implications of any particular policy before we hitch our horse to that particular cart. And I did say that the constitutional commission is going to be doing important work that looks at the future role that taxes might play in Wales. I also set out that there are some significant negative impacts that we potentially would have to consider as well. The situation in Scotland being that the tax system that they have and the choices that they've made mean that there will be a £100 million negative net impact on the Scottish budget, despite the fact that Scottish taxpayers are making £85 million greater tax effort. So, I think all of those things are important for us to consider.
But, in rejecting the proposals last week, I think what I was doing was setting out that we can't take a particular policy choice before we properly understand the implications. And, in response to one of the previous questions this afternoon, I said that we're working alongside HM Revenue & Customs to better understand that longitudinal data, which is coming forth now in respect of Scotland, to understand the behavioural impacts of different choices in respect of rates of income tax. What I was trying to set out last week was that we want to take a considered, evidence-based approach, which I think is the right thing to do.
In terms of the devolution of further tax powers, I agree with what I said previously and with what you've quoted today, which is that the system that we have isn't fit for purpose. But, I am seeking a meeting with the new Financial Secretary to the Treasury to discuss the issue further, and I hope to have that meeting shortly, and I'm more than happy to update colleagues following that meeting.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: It would be really good to have that update, as an when it's available, although your answer feels a little bit like a previous answer you gave me a while ago.
The first part of your response takes me on to my next question, really, because I was going to refer to the fact that you, in your response to our debate last week, said you needed a better understanding of the behavioural changes and that that would be key to developing and maturing the Welsh tax policy agenda, and I clearly agree with that; it's an important factor. But it's also true that the evidence base isn't there—it's lacking. Indeed, last week's report from the Finance Committee on the draft budget expressed disappointment that the Welsh Government hasn't undertaken a comprehensive analysis of what behavioural impact the raising, or indeed the lowering, of the Welsh rates of income tax would have, and I would certainly echo the committee's view. Because if you suggest that you can't vary Welsh rates of income tax without understanding any subsequent behavioural changes, then without getting that work done, your hands will forever be tied. So, I presume that you do acknowledge, first of all, that there is a glaring need, as the Finance Committee report emphasised and as you suggested in your previous answer, for that work to be done. You mentioned the work by the HMRC, maybe you could just explain whether that is in a specific Welsh context, because there are other pieces of work out there that relate to other jurisdictions but may not, obviously, transfer directly over to our experience here in Wales. It really is important that we address that evidence gap, because otherwise the risk is that I'll be coming back here next year and the year after, listening to you giving me the same answers over and over again.

Rebecca Evans AC: So, in respect of the evidence base that we currently use, we already take into account behavioural impacts in our Welsh rates of income tax ready reckoner, which you'll find on the Welsh Government's website. That shows that, for example, were we to raise the additional rate of Welsh rates of income tax, we would probably bring in around £7 million, but actually, the net impact would only be around £3 million, as a result of behavioural changes. We understand that from the basis of a Swiss study—officials advised that that's the closest proxy that we can use in the current circumstances in the absence of any more detailed information that we have. But again, this is an important piece of work for the constitutional commission.
But then, I'd also point colleagues to the independent body that advises the Scottish Government on its budget and its tax choices—so, their version, if you like, of the Office for Budget Responsibility, in terms of presenting detailed information. I think that if you look at that latest report, you'll see that if the Scottish Government were to raise the very highest rate by 1p it would bring in £30 million, but the net impact would only be around £3 million as a result of behavioural changes and out-migration and so on. All of that information is there. We're considering it all the time. But we do need to build up a proper evidence base so that we can take well-informed decisions.

National Parks

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 3. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change regarding the impact of the Government's draft budget on the future of national parks? OQ59135

Rebecca Evans AC: As part of the 2022-25 spending review, an additional £9 million revenue and close to £90 million capital has been allocated to enhance green spaces. This includes funding for a new national park. Spending decisions in relation to national parks are, of course, a matter for the Minister for Climate Change.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for that response. It was very ironic to read the statement by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change on public transport in rural Wales when he was talking about the Sherpa service to Yr Wyddfa as a good example of the kind of system that should be used across Wales. The irony is, of course, that, as things stand, this service could be under threat because of the Government's failure to fund Eryri National Park properly. Indeed, it's likely that every national park will have to look to cut back services, and therefore walking routes won't be maintained, public toilets will close and far more. The original draft budget talked about giving an additional £0.5 million to national parks in Wales, but this funding has disappeared, and the flat settlement means that the budget hasn't increased at all in real terms for some 10 years. So, will the Minister commit to at least reintroducing that £0.5 million to the national parks so that they can deliver their objectives fully?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, there was a 10 per cent uplift to the national park authorities' core grants, taking it to just over £10 million in 2021-22, and that has been maintained into 2022-23. And the aim of that was to provide greater resilience following the pandemic and also increase the impact of their activities around biodiversity, decarbonisation and sustainable tourism. Now, I do understand the pressures that national parks are under, and the Minister for Climate Change, again, whose portfolio in which this sits, has met with the chief executives to discuss these concerns, and officials are continuing to liaise with the national parks. As you say, the parks are currently conducting their exercises to develop saving plans, and I know that the Minister and her officials will be looking at those very closely in terms of determining the future.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Snowdonia national park goes beyond and above to deliver on its statutory purposes, and I'd like to place on record my thanks for how they do manage all the functions they do have, their statutory functions, with the resources they have. However, the effect of inflation on the authority's flat budget until the end of 2024-25 is worryingly approximately £1.1 million, equivalent to a 20 per cent cut in grant levy. Now, we know that inflation is rocketing and their costs are going up, yet you want to provide a flat budget of just over £5.4 million. Now, this is despite the fact that park authorities have no mechanism in terms of funding to increase revenue funding like other public bodies. SNP raises an additional £2.8 million annually in order to deliver. Now, the national park is doing everything possible to raise what money it can, but its work is being completely undermined by continued real-term cuts from the Welsh Government. Now, bearing in mind that Snowdonia national park, potentially, could be facing job and service losses—and we know that this park plays a key role in tackling the climate and nature crisis—will you prove that you are committed to the future of the national park by increasing the grant? It isn't the first time I've raised these concerns, but you cannot keep asking these organisations to do more with less resources. Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, it is frustrating to have these questions from the Conservative benches when our own budget hasn't been uplifted in line with inflation but yet we're asked to uplift the budgets of other organisations in line with inflation, which is just impossible, really, for us to do across the board. We only had £1.2 billion additional funding over the next two financial years; that doesn't even begin to meet the impact of inflation on our budget. So, unfortunately, we haven't been able to provide other organisations with the kind of uplift that we would want to give them under normal circumstances. And that holds true right across the board in terms of the things that Welsh Government supports. So, unfortunately, we are constrained by the budgets that we have. I will say, though, in terms of maintaining a flat budget, it does mean, when you see that, that those budgets were protected from the cuts exercise that we had to undertake to reprioritise funding from across Government towards local government and the NHS as part of our budget process.

Public Libraries

Rhianon Passmore AC: The Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 makes it a duty for the Welsh Government—

You'll need to ask the question on the order paper first.

Rhianon Passmore AC: I will. Thank you. And I'll come to that secondarily.

Okay.

Rhianon Passmore AC: 4. How is the Welsh Government supporting the future of public libraries in Islwyn? OQ59143

Rebecca Evans AC: Local authorities are responsible for the provision of a library service. The Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 requires authorities to provide a comprehensive and efficient service. The Welsh Government supports local library provision through a capital grant fund and by investing in developing innovative services for local communities.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you, and I'll turn to my supplementary question. The Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 makes it a duty for the Welsh Government
'to superintend, and promote the improvement of, the public library service provided by local authorities...and to secure the proper discharge...of the functions in relation to libraries conferred on them as library authorities'
under the Act. Minister, in Islwyn in 2023, libraries continue to play a significant role at the heart of communities in Wales. This week, Newbridge library, on Monday, held an innovative session where a toddlers group was joined by individuals from Memory Lane, thanks to the Royal Voluntary Service, Dementia UK and Dementia Friends. Inter-generations joined together in one space, where community ties are built and strengthened, and throughout the Caerphilly County Borough Council area libraries are being utilised as welcoming spaces, warm hubs and places of cultural community. Minister, how can the Welsh Government continue to support, promote and encourage adults and children to make full use of the library services throughout the communities of Islwyn?

Rebecca Evans AC: It was lovely to hear those examples of the ways in which libraries in Islwyn are innovating, and I’m aware of some other examples as well locally in your area, including a knit and natter group, toddler time, a Lego club, and Blind Date With A Book, in celebration of Valentine’s Day, and they have that in my own library as well, and I thought that was a particularly lovely idea.
Obviously, libraries in Islwyn are really playing an important part in being those warm hubs for communities as well, and they will take part in the nationally recognised Bookstart, an early years scheme, which provides free material and information for parents and toddlers at the nine- and 18-month health check. So, libraries are playing an absolutely critical role in our lives across all of the generations. So, thank you to those libraries in Islwyn, which are doing such a fantastic job there.
I think it’s important as well for us to all be evangelical about libraries, because, if people haven’t been to a library lately, they’re going to go in and be very surprised. They’re nothing like perhaps we remember from younger days, so there’s a lot going on, and I think they are absolutely hubs of the community now, so I completely want to celebrate libraries at every opportunity we get.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you. I find myself in complete agreement with the Member from Islwyn and the Minister on this one. Public libraries provide positive outcomes for people and communities in a variety of ways, beyond simply providing access to books, as you’ve already outlined. They contribute to the formation of human capital and maintenance of mental and physical well-being, social inclusivity and community cohesion as well, of course, as educating and providing books for those who can’t afford them—particularly important when we see that a massive 44 per cent of pupils rarely or never read books, which is far higher than in other parts of the UK. Yet Caerphilly council are cutting library funding by 20 per cent; Monmouthshire County Council are cutting funding for new library books by 50 per cent. So, what action are you taking and financial help are you giving our local authorities to ensure that these vital libraries are kept open and well used?

Rebecca Evans AC: So, the majority of the Welsh Government’s financial support for public libraries is distributed through the local government core settlement, which colleagues will remember is uplifted by 7.9 per cent in our budget for next year. No authority will see an increase of less than 6.5 per cent. There are other sources of funding that are important, however, including the capital transformation fund for museums, archives and libraries, and the funding that we’re providing for the digital library service, which is also an important investment in terms of making sure that our libraries are fit for the future.
Any potential budget cuts to library services will need to be monitored by officials in the culture division in Dawn Bowden’s portfolio to ensure that public libraries meet statutory requirements. Local authorities must demonstrate that any service reductions will not impair their ability to comply with their statutory responsibilities and those discussions are ongoing between culture division officials and the library sector to develop a seventh Welsh public library standards framework, but, in the meantime, services are continuing to operate under framework 6.

Shared Services

Peter Fox AS: 5. How is the Welsh Government working with local authorities to support and fund the continuation of shared services? OQ59139

Rebecca Evans AC: The Welsh Government is supportive of local authorities working in collaboration to improve services and provide value for money, including via shared services. Corporate joint committees provide an important new vehicle to support strategic regional collaboration between authorities.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister. Minister, I know you will recognise the important role that shared services between local authorities play in affording valuable services to many thousands of children, enhancing their learning experiences. The amounts of support are often fundamental to the viability and existence of extremely important services. So, it was with dismay that I learned that the new Labour-run Monmouthshire County Council are planning to withdraw their £100,000 grant support to Gwent Music, a truly fantastic shared service that works with over 8,000 children across Gwent and has done for over 50 years. This withdrawal of support could be the last nail in the wonderful service's coffin. Minister, recognising the increased settlement you are making available to councils this year, and further recognising the increased levels of reserves many councils have accrued, would you share my concerns that removing crucial resources and cutting the lifelines to shared services like Gwent Music is short sighted and detrimental to the learning and life experiences of our young people?

Rebecca Evans AC: In prioritising public services, including local government, in our budget settlement, we've always been clear at every step that it still will mean a difficult set of decisions for local government to take. I know that local government leaders have been consulting on a whole range of things that they wouldn't normally want to be consulting their local areas on in terms of service provision for the future. But, at the end of the day, we have provided the best possible settlement to local government. It doesn't match inflation; it doesn't meet all of the needs that local government is going to have to meet in terms of their local communities. So, we continue to press the UK Government to provide greater funding for public services and we maintain that call to them to use the spring statement on 15 March to provide the much-needed additional uplift for public services.

Draft Budget for 2023-24

Alun Davies AC: 6. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of its draft budget for 2023-24 on local authorities? OQ59141

Rebecca Evans AC: The Government is providing unhypothecated revenue funding of over £5.5 billion and £180 million of capital funding in 2023-24 in support of local authority services. While this is a significantly better settlement than authorities had anticipated, authorities will need to take some difficult decisions given the high levels of inflation.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for that answer. I was very engaged and taken by the answer the Minister also gave to Peter Fox in an earlier question. The answer could have been given by a different Minister a decade ago, in reality. Local authorities are suffering from a squeeze in funding, and the people who suffer most are the poorest and the most vulnerable people. And the local authorities that suffer the most are those local authorities least able to sustain additional income through fee income and other commercial income, and those tend to be the poorest parts of the country as well, places like Blaenau Gwent, which I represent. The Welsh Government has a responsibility to those people, and if I'm quite clear, Minister, it's not good enough simply to say, 'It's the fault of the UK Government, we're not doing anything.' Those days are gone. What I want to see from the Welsh Government is real action to ensure that, perhaps, shared services as you've just debated, take a hit, but, more potentially, a reorganisation of local government to put people first, to ensure that we have local authorities capable of delivering the services we ask them to deliver, and partners in ensuring that we can address the real social issues we're facing—social and economic issues we're facing—across Wales. Blaming the Tories was yesterday's game. I believe the Welsh Government's got a responsibility to those people today.

Rebecca Evans AC: I think the Welsh Government has a responsibility to be honest to people in Wales that it is a fact that our budget is not rising in line with inflation, and I think that's a fact. Nonetheless, Welsh Government is doing absolutely everything that it can in order to prioritise and protect public services, which is why we undertook a very painful exercise across Government to try and reprioritise funding towards local government and towards health services. And it's why we have provided at least the amount of consequential funding that we received in respect of NHS services and local government services to those particular sectors, bearing in mind that we have had to take really tough decisions ourselves. The financial situation we find ourselves in is a fact, it's not an excuse, but I would agree with the point that the Member made that the people who suffer the most in these difficult times are those who are the poorest, and also we have to make sure that our funding settlement to local government and the formula that drives it is one that demonstrates fairness in terms of deprivation and also in terms of sparsity, and I think that those things are important parts of our settlement.

Isle of Anglesey County Council's Budget

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 7. Will the Minister make a statement on the Isle of Anglesey County Council's budget? OQ59132

Rebecca Evans AC: In 2023-24, the council will receive £123.7 million through the local government settlement—an increase of 7.9 per cent. While the council will still have to make some difficult decisions in the face of the current rates of inflation, this is a better settlement than authorities had expected.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for that response. Budgets are tight in all authorities, of course, but sometimes issues arise that put huge strains on budgets. Anglesey council is facing that, given the announcement of the 2 Sisters Food Group company that they are consulting on closing the works in Llangefni, where over 700 are employed. The priority at the moment, of course, is to see whether we can change the company's mind, but I don't need to tell you how much money would be required by a council to respond to job losses at that scale in an area such as Anglesey. The number of individuals and families that would need support is great. We would need support for housing, children's services, and so on and so forth.
So, will the Minister give us an assurance that she will be willing to look at providing additional support to Anglesey council, on top of their basic budget, in order to respond to the situation and to enable them to provide the necessary support to the workers and their families?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I can confirm that officials have met with the chief executive officer of 2 Sisters and are continuing the dialogue to pull all possible levers to offer support to people affected by the recent developments. And, of course, our officials are working very closely with the local authority. I know that the Minister for Economy has been speaking to the leader as well.
Obviously, it is devastating news for the rural community, and we shouldn’t underestimate the impact on public services in terms of responding to it. We have mobilised now the taskforce that the economy Minister previously referred to, to try to offer our full support to the affected employees, and also working with the trade union at the plant. I know that the taskforce is now meeting weekly to find a way forward, and to understand the implications, and to offer support to the workforce that has been impacted by this announcement. So, I think that the stage that we are at at the moment really is mapping out what the impact might be.

And finally, question 8, Luke Fletcher.

Apprenticeship Opportunities

Luke Fletcher AS: 8. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Economy regarding funding for local authorities to promote apprenticeship opportunities for young learners? OQ59131

Rebecca Evans AC: The Welsh Government has committed an extra £36 million over the next two years, with the goal of delivering 125,000 apprenticeships by 2027. Apprenticeship policy is the responsibility of the Minister for Economy.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for that response, Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: Last week, I asked the education Minister about the skills agenda, and how he intends to address the skills gap from his end. The key point that I raised in my question is that we are struggling to retain young learners, particularly from low-income households. In Wales, we also have a lack of learner destination data in FE and apprenticeships—data that, alongside bolstered financial support, could help us recognise and reduce the number of people leaving FE and apprenticeships.
Does the Minister agree that creating opportunity is one half of this, but retention is the other? And is there more that the Government could be doing on this front in relation to gathering that data and targeting that financial support?

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, I'm very grateful for the question. I think that, perhaps, it would be better directed at the Minister with responsibility for this area, but I will do my best and point the Member towards the important work that we have been doing through the young person's guarantee, which you will have seen from the recent announcement has helped thousands of young people into work or training or further education in the last year, which I think is really successful. I know that my colleagues work very closely with the four regional skills partnerships to make sure that young people do have the kinds of skills that local businesses need.

I thank the Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd

The next item is questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and the first question today is from Heledd Fychan.

Green Spaces

Heledd Fychan AS: 1. How is the Welsh Government supporting communities across South Wales Central to access community green spaces? OQ59118

Lesley Griffiths AC: High-quality green spaces and parks provide opportunities for healthy recreation, support biodiversity and reduce air pollution. The Welsh Government’s Local Places for Nature programme, and the enabling natural resources and well-being grant, have funded the creation of hundreds of local spaces, and our green flags award scheme also drives up quality.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister. Certainly, we are all aware, as you just listed, of the major benefits of community green spaces, in terms of health and well-being, biodiversity, air quality, and so on. Despite this, a number of green spaces are being lost, including in areas across our capital city, due to various developments. As you will know from previous questions from other Members, a number of campaigners want to see investment in new parks to accompany such developments, as well as community spaces for growing food.
So, how is the Welsh Government working with local authorities to ensure that such schemes are part of their local development plans, and align with their commitment to act on the climate crisis?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You do raise a very important point, and obviously my colleague the Minister for Finance and Local Government does have these discussions with local authorities, and I know the Minister for Climate Change also does, with her planning hat on, in relation to LDPs. I go back to what I was saying about Local Places for Nature; it just shows how people do really appreciate the ability to be able to access green space from their doorstep, if you like, and obviously in somewhere like Cardiff, in a capital city, it's really important to preserve the green spaces that we have, but also to look at whether there are any opportunities for new ones.

Joel James MS: Minister, research has shown that, during the pandemic, those with disabilities spent even less time out in green spaces and accessing nature than before. Whilst the vulnerability to COVID was a key factor, it has also been found that cognitive load had a detrimental impact, not to mention confusion of social arrangements, such as how many people could meet at one time, and whether or not physical contact like hugging was allowed. All of this led to an overall drop in confidence for some when accessing green spaces. Whilst physical accessibility is an important barrier that we must continue to address, we need to be ever mindful that barriers to access can be much more nuanced and subjective. Therefore, Minister, what assessment has the Welsh Government made of how it can rebuild the confidence of those with disabilities to re-engage with nature and our green spaces? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Member raises the very important point, I think, that the COVID pandemic had a lot of harms apart from COVID itself, and clearly, as you say, people with some disabilities may not have been able to recognise the limits and the limitations that were put on people even outside, with how many people could get together to go for a walk, for instance. I'm not aware of any specific research that the Welsh Government is undertaking—I'm not sure who the Minister would be, in fact—but I will certainly look into it, and if there has been some analysis done, I will ask that particular Member to write to you.

Rural Development

Cefin Campbell MS: 2. How will the Welsh Government continue to support rural development in Mid and West Wales as EU funding comes to an end? OQ59133

Lesley Griffiths AC: Our approach to supporting the rural economy is focused on delivering programme for government commitments. I have announced over £200 million of funding for rural investment schemes to support the resilience of the rural economy and our natural environment.

Cefin Campbell MS: Thank you for that response. Across Wales, as you know, some 1,200 socioeconomic projects have been funded under the current rural development plan, and these projects have included a range of activities, including facilitating access to crucial community services in rural areas. Organisations in my region, of course, have expressed concerns about their future when this funding comes to an end. For example, Planed in Pembrokeshire is looking at drawing its community food hubs programme to an end, which supports around 15 local food hubs across three counties. In Powys, Ecodyfi is facing the possibility of bringing two major projects to an end, Tyfu Dyfi and Outdoor Health, with possible effects on community well-being and employment.
Now, I accept that we've received less funding from the UK Government than was originally pledged. We recall 'not a penny less' being mentioned, of course. But I am concerned that there hasn't been sufficient new rural development funding announced by the Government. So, Minister, can you explain how the Government intends to continue to fund these kinds of important initiatives in rural Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As you said, we were promised not a penny less, but unfortunately, we know, as a result of the UK Government not honouring its commitment to replace EU funding to Wales, we are actually £1.1 billion worse off. And clearly it's not possible to find that significant sum of money from within our own budget, so we do know that, certainly in my portfolio, our farming sector, our rural economies, will lose out on around £243 million of replacement EU funding over the last two spending periods.
It's really important that we do continue to fund as many projects as we can, and have as many new schemes for the agricultural sector and for our rural economy. So, you'll be aware of the announcement I made around the rural investment schemes, for instance, to support our farmers, our foresters, our land managers and our food businesses across the rural economy. So, there is a significant number of projects within that. I'm unaware if the specific project you mentioned is able to access further funding, but, obviously, we will continue to invest in our rural economies.

James Evans MS: Part of rural development, Minister, is also the Glastir scheme, and I recently met with NFU Cymru in my constituency and the deputy chairman of NFU Cymru in Brecon and Radnorshire, Rob Blaenbwch, who wanted me to put a question to you directly about Glastir funding. We're seeing the Glastir funding being rolled on a yearly basis, with contracts being renewed. What my local NFU would like to see is those contracts being rolled forward right the way up to the start of the sustainable farming scheme, to give those farmers some assurance of long-term stability and funding. Is that something that the Government is looking to do to make sure that our farmers have some stability in very uncertain times?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'm very aware of what the NFU would like me to do around the Glastir schemes. You'll be aware that I announced that they would continue to the end of 2023. Unfortunately, because of the uncertainty in our budgets and in the way that I've just described in my answer to Cefin Campbell, I'm not able to do what you would like me to do. And it is very uncertain times, made not much easier by leaving the European Union and by the very challenging financial situation that we're in. What I have asked officials to do is to give me some advice around Glastiras to whether I can provide any assurance beyond 2023, and that will come to me in the next couple of months.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. Just to continue that theme around rural development, we know that the lion's share of RDP actually came from the EU, so Brexit coupled with the Australian and New Zealand trade deal is further evidence, if we needed it, that the Tories are indeed bad news for farmers and for Wales. [Interruption.] And I do wish that they would take some responsibility for their role in taking us out of the EU, and the effect on our farming communities.
The Agriculture (Wales) Bill is an opportunity to reset the dial and to produce solutions for Wales made in Wales. That same approach needs to be applied to the rural development programme. Unions have raised concerns about the governance and implementation of the RDP, and indeed their concerns were justified following an Audit Wales report in summer 2020. We hopefully can't afford to make those mistakes again, particularly at a time when money is so tight. So, I wonder if I could ask you what plans you have to ensure that the RDP programme going forward is robust, and what your vision is for developing our rural communities. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much. I can assure the Member that, obviously, lessons were learned. Lessons always have to be learned when you have the reports that we did. You'll agree that there is a significant amount of monitoring that does go on into our rural development programme, and there were calls at the time for me to have an independent review, for instance, but I really didn't think that was necessary. What I think is really important is that we use all the RDP funding we can. I'm making every endeavour to ensure that every penny is spent before the RDP comes to an end.
I mentioned in an earlier answer about the significant funding we've put into the rural investment schemes, because I think what is really important is that we don't throw the baby away with the bath water. Whilst we haven't got the funding to be able to replace like for like, it is really important that we keep the benefits that we've gained over the years of the rural development programme going forward.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Llywydd. Every year for the last five years, over 10,000 cattle have been slaughtered. Over 50,000 dead due to bovine TB in Wales, and this includes pregnant cows slaughtered due to testing TB positive. A farmer recounted to me the time they watched their heavily pregnant cow slaughtered on farm, using a 12-bore shotgun between the poor animal's eyes, the trigger was pulled. Post death, the pregnant cow uncontrollably spasmed, destroying a heavy gate, the unborn calf writhing inside its dead mother's womb as it suffocated to death. It's something akin to watching someone die from poison, they said. It was horrendous to see, and clearing up all the blood and smashed gate afterwards was just as punishing. That's how the farmer described it—no compassion for the cow, the calf, and certainly not for the farmer. 'Better I get more distressed than my cow', they add, 'I get to walk away from it, she doesn't; it's the least I can do.' This heavy mental burden is being put on our farmers, especially when it happens more than once. That farmer told me how three pregnant cows were shot, one after another. 'It just about killed me; I will never forget what I saw'—that's how they described it. In-womb TB transmission is rare, so why are these traumatic events allowed to happen? Will the Welsh Government show that compassion and change its policy to allow bovine TB-positive in-calf cows and heifers to isolate and give birth to healthy calves before being humanely slaughtered?

Lesley Griffiths AC: You clearly outlined a very distressing situation, and I'm very sorry to hear that you and the farmer felt there was no compassion. This was actually a piece of work that we undertook, probably four years ago, where I asked the then chief veterinary officer and her team to work with farmers to see how we could avoid situations like you describe. At the time, it was deemed to be the best way to carry on with that on-farm slaughter. In terms of whether we could look at it again, I would be very happy to do so. As you know, we are looking at the TB eradication programme, and I'd certainly be very happy to take advice from farmers to see if there is a way that we can avoid those distressing situations.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Minister. I don't think what I described would be the best way forward, so I really do urge you to have a look at this again. I know a new CVO is starting in March, and I would urge you to work with him to make sure that this inhumane practice is brought to an end and those cows can calve with a little bit of dignity.
At last year's Pembrokeshire County Show, you helped launched what was being called at the time a Pembrokeshire TB pilot, where local farmers were going to take ownership, using data and methods already available, to form a new approach to tackling TB, removing the residual disease from the herd. Since then, the project has seen hundreds of hours of hard work from volunteers, who are desperate to see improvements. The interim chief veterinary officer even made reference to this pilot at committee, stressing how the Welsh Government could be agile with funding to support local TB projects such as the Pembrokeshire pilot. This project and its progress has now been stonewalled by the Government and its procurement process, with a minimum of a six-month delay. I can't tell you the disappointment that has been felt by those involved.
You've talked about farmers needing to take ownership of bovine TB, and I agree. But when it comes to a committed group of farmers and vets working together to take control of the situation, to do the right thing, the Welsh Government aren't even on the same pitch. We're no longer in the European Union, so we shouldn't have to abide by EU procurement rules, and the funding for this project already exists within TB funding. Please tell me what has gone wrong here to mean that this project, which you were at the launch of, has been delayed such as this.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Nothing has gone wrong. As the Member states, my officials are currently holding significant internal discussions to agree the parameters of the project to allow for a full procurement exercise. You'd be the first to complain if I didn't follow the appropriate rules. I am very committed to the TB Pembrokeshire project. I know you have been part of it; as you say, many volunteers have, and I'm very grateful for that work. If we are going to tackle deep-seated levels of infection in parts of Pembrokeshire, I absolutely think that this is required. But it's not a matter of being stonewalled—I think that that's completely the wrong word. You and I had a meeting to discuss what we could do about it, but I have to follow a full procurement process.

Samuel Kurtz MS: It's a shame that those full procurement rules weren't followed when Gilestone Farm was purchased. It seems it's one rule for one and one rule for another.
Another example of the Welsh Government not being on the same pitch as farmers is that not one Welsh farm took part in the Animal and Plant Health Agency's CattleBCG vaccine trial. Surely if Welsh Government were serious about eradicating TB then they would have worked with the industry to identify farms to take part. And now, with phase 2 of the trial under way, still no Welsh farms are participating. What I'm trying to get at, Minister, is where is the hope for farmers in Wales? This disease has ripped through Welsh farming for long enough, and our farmers have lost hope that this Government is serious about solving it.
I'll happily declare an interest here, Llywydd, because next week I'll be out TB testing, helping my father. We as a family will be going through the worry and the stress of hoping, praying for a clear TB test. This isn't just policy for me, Minister, this is so much more. So, I invite you to join my father and me, to come out and see what happens on farm during our TB tests. Because what the industry wants is hope—not to see their animals slaughtered in front of their eyes, not to be held back by bureaucracy when they want to get on and do the right thing, and certainly not to be told that they are at fault for the spread of bovine TB. Please, Minister, give the industry some hope.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'm not quite sure how you expect me to make a farm be part of a pilot project. Please believe me when I say that APHA tried very, very hard to—[Interruption.] APHA tried very, very hard to get farms to be part of the first phase of the pilot project, and unfortunately we've had no takers for the second part. But to say that we haven't tried is ridiculous. The Animal and Plant Health Agency have done a great deal of work to try and get some of the farms to be part of the pilot project.
I have attended farms when TB testing is being undertaken—of course I have. I absolutely see that very much as part of my role. Unfortunately I won't be able to attend your farm next week, but, of course, that is something that I have undertaken. I absolutely understand the distress in the lead-up to testing—I can imagine the concerns—and, of course, while you're waiting for the results. That's why we are committed to eradicating TB. But we all really need to work together. Just to blame Welsh Government is not acceptable. I would never just blame farmers.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you, Llywydd. We are now at the beginning, or, in some cases, in the middle, of the lambing season. Naturally, therefore, we turn our sights towards securing the safety of our stock from attacks. Recent data from NFU Mutual shows that out-of-control dogs threaten sheep in Wales, with the data showing that animals to the value of around £440,000 have been seriously injured or killed in Wales in 2022. This was an increase of over 15 per cent on the previous year. The review also showed that 64 per cent of dog owners allow their dogs to run free in rural areas, and farmers say that these owners are focused on their mobile phones rather than on their dogs. Scotland has introduced far harsher penalties, with fines of up to £40,000. What steps is the Government taking to introduce preventative steps here in Wales in order to ensure that we don't see more animals suffering in Wales this year?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You raise a very important point, and it's an issue that we take very seriously. We really would encourage livestock keepers to continue to report all incidents to the police. I think I should say that at the outset. I think it's really important that that information is recorded. But of course, what we want to see is a drop and a complete reduction in those numbers of attacks. I think you just made a really important point about mobile phones, which I hadn't thought about. As you are aware, the wildlife and rural crime commissioner has just released some new videos as part of a campaign, as we approach the lambing season, to warn people about looking after their animals, making sure their dogs don't chase sheep. I know it's a minority of people, but, of course, as is always the case, they spoil it for the majority of us. I will ask him if he has considered that aspect of mobile phone usage as well, because, as you say, people are distracted and then they're not looking at what their dogs are doing.
I think the cost, both financially and emotionally, to those who find injured or dead livestock is just wholly unacceptable, and lots of animal welfare implications come from that as well. You'll probably be aware that the UK Government are proposing the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill. That proposes to repeal and replace the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953. As you can see, it's a very old piece of legislation that clearly needs bringing up to date to be fit for purpose. Within that Bill, there'll be a new set of provisions to address the issue of dog attacks and dog worrying. Unfortunately, the Bill has been stalled. I did have a meeting with the DEFRA Minister to see how quickly that Act can be brought forward, because I think that will help us, looking at what the courts can do, and maybe looking at increasing the fines.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you, Minister for that response.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: If I may change to the other sector within your portfolio, from agriculture to aquaculture and fisheries, the most recent data on the fishing industry in Wales shows us that farmed finfish and shellfish saw a massive 82 per cent fall in value between 2019 and 2021. Over the last 10 years, we've seen Welsh fishing fleet landings reduced by 75 per cent in weight and 41 per cent in value. Their profitability is also down significantly. We are seeing the decline of an ancient sector—part of our coastal life and our culture and identity disappearing in front of our eyes. It is no different in the processing sector. By 2021, we only had 28 full-time equivalent jobs in the processing sector here in Wales. In Scotland, by contrast, they employ 7,789 in the processing sector. Minister, is this an acceptable state of affairs, and will you look again at significantly increasing investment and support into fisheries and aquaculture in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I have had discussions with the fisheries sector. I'm very aware of the reported decline. I do recognise they've had some unprecedented pressures due to leaving the European Union, the COVID pandemic, more recently the hyperinflation of fuel that has been caused by the war in Ukraine, and obviously then the cost-of-living crisis. I think a lot of these pressures are at play across all our primary production sectors.
I've asked officials to closely monitor the impact on markets and costs, and they're working with Seafish to better understand the trends and to identify areas where mitigations and interventions could possibly be made to halt the regrettable decline. I've also recently launched the Welsh marine and fisheries scheme. The marketing measures window closed last week, and officials are appraising the projects in the coming weeks. And we've got the second window—actually, I think it might have just closed this month—the energy efficiency and mitigation of climate change window, which I was asked to bring forward.
On the positive side, we're again having a Welsh pavilion at the Seafood Expo Global in Barcelona in April where we can actually promote our Welsh seafood. It's always been a very successful trade mission for us, so I was keen to support it again this year to try and do what we can for our fishing and aquaculture businesses.

Attracting Young People into Farming

Laura Anne Jones AC: 3. What is the Welsh Government doing to attract young people into careers in farming and agriculture? OQ59144

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Welsh Government continues to support and encourage young people to enter the agriculture industry through programmes such as Farming Connect and Venture. The proposed sustainable farming scheme will be available to all types of farms in all parts of Wales and will support new entrants to establish sustainable agricultural businesses.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, Minister. As you know, farming is the foundation upon which the £6 billion Welsh food and drink supply chain is built. They're the guardians of our environment and the sector employs 17 per cent of the Welsh workforce. Recent statistics from Qualifications Wales have shown that there has been a 14 per cent decrease in the vocational qualification certificates awarded in the agriculture, horticulture and animal care sectors compared to 2021. Furthermore, Wales has the largest percentage decrease in the total agricultural workforce from 2015 to 2021 at 13.6 per cent, compared to 2.4 per cent in England and 3.1 per cent in Scotland. How are you working, Minister, with the rest of your Government to reverse this worrying trend and ensure that we support Welsh farming for generations to come?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I've always taken a specific interest in new entrants, working with people to see what the barriers are to them going into agriculture. I have to say, education and skills hasn't been one of the barriers that's ever, I don't think, been raised with me. I've been focusing on—. I mentioned Venture in my original answer to you, which has been very successful in helping to match farmers and landowners who are looking to step back from the industry with new entrants going into farming. We also try and work with our local authorities to ensure that their farms are protected as farms so that they can be used by people, particularly when they first want to get into agriculture. Perhaps they can't afford to buy a farm, but they can lease a farm from the local authority.

The Egg Industry

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 4. What is the Minister doing to support the egg industry in South Wales East? OQ59130

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Welsh Government provides support to the egg industry in south-east Wales. Funding is available through our capital grant schemes, with direct advice and support made available to farm and food businesses via our Farming Connect and Business Wales teams.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for that response.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Most people who have been food shopping in recent months will have noticed a shortage of eggs. Some producers, faced with rising costs and supermarkets that refuse to reflect this in their contracts, are leaving the industry if they can. This was made clear to me by an egg producer in my region during a recent meeting. They told me in no uncertain terms that the egg sector is in deep trouble. Minister, what can be done to get better co-ordination in the supply chain to give our farmers confidence to produce our Welsh eggs? Unless this matter is tackled, we face increased importation of eggs to fill the gap, with no guarantee that they were produced to the same standard and, therefore, free from bacteria like salmonella. It is vital that eggs remain fully traceable as well as affordable, and I would like to know what the Government is doing to address the major problem in the sector.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. This is obviously a very challenging time for all our farmers, and I know poultry and egg farmers are particularly reliant on feed and energy, two areas where we have seen significant rises in the costs because of agri-inflation. The egg industry—and I think you were referring to this in the first part of your question—is also calling for contract reform to prevent suppliers being locked into loss-making positions and to provide some stability for the sector, going forward, amidst the ongoing egg shortages. I did write to the Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs Minister, Mark Spencer, just before Christmas on this matter, because I think it's something that we can look at on a UK-wide basis. I'm awaiting a response from him. But I do think we could do better if we work together across the UK, and, obviously, the Minister I referred to for farming, fisheries and food could use his powers under the Agriculture Act 2020 to consult with the industry, to establish whether a legislative solution is required to support them going forward. We've also had the impact of a very, very sustained avian influenza outbreak over the last 18 months or so, which clearly has had an impact too.

Peter Fox AS: I thank the Member for South Wales East for raising this, and I share his concerns and the industry's concerns, and I refer Members to my register of interests as a farmer.
Poultry producers in Wales have been facing the twin pressures that you recognise of avian influenza and surging production costs for some considerable time. Off the back of a meeting of concerned poultry farmers at the end of 2022, I think NFU Cymru wrote to you, Minister, asking if you would consider making use of the powers under Schedule 5, Part 2 of the Agriculture Act 2020, to investigate whether an exceptional market conditions declaration ought to be made. As you'll recall, I've raised this previously in the Chamber, and this was called for in light of the severe market disturbances being experienced by producers and consumers. And, Minister, you've partly answered my question, but could you update the Senedd on what discussions you and your officials are having with the industry and DEFRA since the end of November?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. So, I did raise it at our inter-ministerial group in December and then subsequently wrote to the Minister for farming, fisheries and food. As I say, unfortunately, I haven't had a response to that letter. We have a further inter-ministerial group, I think, in a fortnight, so I will raise it again if I haven't had a response. I do think we need to look at how we use those powers and, as I say, whether a legislative solution would be the best way forward, but, obviously, my officials continue to work across the UK at official level with the agriculture market monitoring group. I've asked them to really stress, because it's such an integrated supply across the UK, a UK-wide solution would be the best way forward.

National Peatland Action Programme

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 5. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change regarding the impact of the Agriculture (Wales) Bill on the national peatland action programme? OQ59136

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Agriculture (Wales) Bill is the result of several years of policy development across ministerial portfolios, which includes discussions with the Minister for Climate Change. Officials have also been in regular discussions with colleagues to understand the impact of the Bill on existing and future programmes, including peatland restoration.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for the answer. The success of the national peatland action programme is its ability to deliver in the here and now, but it's come to my attention that a lot of works are held up or not progressing due to landowners holding on to see if they will require degraded peat to enter into the new sustainable farming scheme, or that they might be better off undertaking the work through the sustainable farming scheme. So, can the Minister give assurances to land managers across Wales that they will not be penalised either financially or in scheme eligibility for undertaking peatland restoration through presently available mechanisms?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, as the Member is aware, the sustainable farming scheme is currently being designed. We've gone through a significant amount of co-design with our stakeholders, so I can't give you that assurance as you required, but, obviously, we're really keen that that work is undertaken. I do hear what you're saying about farmers waiting to see, if you like, but we would encourage them to continue to carry out the actions that we really need as part of the national peatland action programme. I think what that programme has really done is provide the leadership that we needed for that sustained peatland restoration, but we'll certainly consider it—well, we are considering it—as a sustainable land management duty. So, I don't see why we wouldn't then reward it. But, I would encourage people to really carry on with the work that they've been doing whilst we, obviously, bring the Agriculture (Wales) Bill through the Senedd and we design the sustainable farming scheme, which will be replacing the basic payment scheme.

Animal Welfare

Buffy Williams MS: 6. Will the Minister outline what impact the rising cost of living has had on animal welfare? OQ59111

Lesley Griffiths AC: As the economic situation worsens, pressures on household budgets to maintain good welfare conditions for pets is becoming ever more challenging. My officials have worked closely with the third sector to monitor the situation and are pleased to see animal welfare groups in Wales working together to support our pet owners.

Buffy Williams MS: The rising cost of living has led to a record number of pets being abandoned. The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals estimate that a pet is cast aside every 15 minutes in the UK. Dogs Trust have reported a record number of calls from owners looking to give up their dogs, citing financial reasons, and a survey by YouGov shows that 48 per cent of respondents confirmed they would find it more difficult to give their dog all they needed. Charities like Friends of Animals Wales, run by volunteers, who have three shops in my constituency, provide a pet foodbank so that pets don't have to go without, or owners don't have to go without to feed their pets. But, not all constituencies are fortunate enough to have this provision and it's difficult to reach all pet owners. What advice would the Minister give to pet owners in Wales who are struggling to provide for their pets, and how can the Welsh Government help charities like Friends of Animals Wales reach those in need of support?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, as I said in my opening answer, my officials have been working very closely with third sector organisations to see what more can be done to help our pet owners who are struggling to feed and look after their pets in the way that they and we would want them to. Unfortunately, we did see pet ownership increase during the COVID-19 pandemic and, obviously, as the economic situation has worsened with those pressures on household budgets it has become much more challenging to maintain good welfare conditions for our pets.
We have the Animal Welfare Network Wales group, and they're in discussion also with the third sector organisations, and that does include the Dogs Trust, that you referred to, the People's Dispensary for Sick Animals and Cats Protection, just to monitor the current situation relating to affordable veterinary care as well, because that's obviously something else that could be causing pet owners concerns.
We're also promoting our social media campaigns still—Paws, Prevent, Protect—and that really reminds prospective purchasers of the need to do their research before they buy a pet, because we know that responsible pet ownership does begin before you purchase an animal.
You referred to the pet foodbank. I know that the foodbank in my own constituency does provide for pets also. So, again I would encourage people to try their local foodbank if they haven't got a specific pet foodbank in the way that you referred to in your constituency.

Tom Giffard AS: Natural Resources Wales have recently proposed to increase charges for sheep-dip disposal by 10 times. This, I'm sure you'll be most aware, will cause barriers to eradicating sheep scab. Now, I note in your statement last month you committed £4.5 million of rural investment scheme funding to help tackle the disease, but you didn't mention whether this would be per year or multi-year funding. I also realise you said in your responses to my colleague Sam Kurtz that the increase in fees from Natural Resources Wales will only impact a small percentage of farms, only giving out 37 permits per year. However, as NFU Cymru have noted, these proposals, they say, are ill thought out and short-sighted. They're asking for a full justification from NRW about this increase. So, what other breakdowns have you seen that would indicate that this is a fair decision for farmers who are struggling with the cost of living?

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, obviously, NRW sits within the portfolio of the Minister for Climate Change, and I know she will be having advice from NRW around the rise in the regulatory licences that you referred to. I have done some research into this following being told there were only 37 licences given, and that indeed is correct. I think it's really important to recognise that NRW aren't trying to make profit from this. What they are trying to make sure is that they're costs are covered, and there hasn't been a rise for many, many years, and I appreciate is it a significant rise in one go. But, as I say, the Minister is still awaiting advice on it.

Greyhound Racing

Jack Sargeant AC: 7. What consideration has the Welsh Government given to banning greyhound racing? OQ59110

Lesley Griffiths AC: I sent my response to the Petitions Committee, which the Member chairs, to the report that came forward on this issue yesterday, and, as detailed in the response, any proposed changes to legislation will be subject to full public consultation.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for that answer and I'm grateful to the Minister for responding positively to the Senedd Petitions Committee on the report that called for a phased ban on greyhound racing. The reason we called for a phased ban on greyhound racing is because the majority of Members felt the evidence that we heard was overwhelmingly in favour of a phased ban. I understand the position of the Welsh Government that they will have to go out to consultation on any ban, and a consultation will include the position on a ban on greyhound racing. I wondered if you could update the Chamber, Minister, on what the next steps are for the Welsh Government in this regard.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, and I was very pleased to be able to accept, or accept in principle, all the recommendations bar one, and I very much look forward to the debate that will be held in this Chamber on 6 March, and I suppose that's the next step. And then we will have a look at what more we need to do to have a look and make sure that our greyhounds are protected as much as possible. I've also met with the owner of Valley stadium, which, as you know, is the only greyhound stadium here in Wales, to discuss the welfare issues that have been raised with me. I'm very keen to see the inspections continue at the stadium. But the next immediate step will be the debate on 6 March.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Minister, for your response to my colleague Jack Sargeant's question. As you know, in a few weeks' time, we will shortly be discussing the Petitions Committee's report on greyhound racing and specifically its main recommendation that the sport be banned in Wales. As highlighted in that report, I was the only voice in the committee who believes more could be done to enforce and tighten existing regulation first to improve greyhound welfare. As part of my own evidence gathering, I met with the Greyhound Board of Great Britain, the regulator for licensed greyhound racing in Great Britain, to discuss 'A Good Life for Every Greyhound', their independently assessed welfare strategy, which all GBGB tracks have to adhere to. I'm aware that GBGB tracks do not appear to have the same level of issues surrounding animal welfare that appear at Wales's only track, which does not have GBGB accreditation, and I'd like this Government to do a more thorough investigation into whether or not GBGB regulation could resolve animal welfare issues before legislating for a ban. With this in mind—and I'm conscious I've not seen your response to the committee's recommendations yet—what investigative work has the Welsh Government undertaken to properly understand animal welfare at the Valley track and at GBGB registered tracks? And given that the Petitions Committee's report has also called for a review of other sports in Wales involving animals, I'm curious to know what rationale will be used in deciding which sports are banned and which are not, should this Government support the recommendations of the Petitions Committee's report. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, in answer to your last point—and I appreciate you haven't seen my response as yet—recommendation 5, which was that we should also look at other sports where animals compete, is the recommendation I have rejected, because, obviously, this is a focus on greyhound racing. What our animal welfare plan, which I introduced back in 2021—it's a five-year plan—does is include a framework for the realisation of the four animal welfare programme for government commitments, and that does outline how we will integrate a broad range of ongoing animal welfare policy work.
In relation to your questions around GBGB tracks, you'll be aware that the one track in Wales isn't a GBGB track. I, too, have met with GBGB to see what more could be done, and my officials are having a look. I don't think they've visited any other GBGB tracks, but certainly had discussions with, I think, the chief executive of GBGB,to see what we can learn.

Joyce Watson AC: Greyhound racing is all too often incredibly dangerous for the greyhounds, and there is this statistic that 2,000 greyhounds were euthanised in the UK between 2018 and 2020 simply as a result of being raced. I strongly believe that no animal should suffer in the name of sport, and that goes for all sports that use all forms of animals for human entertainment, so I'm pleased to hear you say that that's under consideration in this consultation. There are 35,000 people who signed this petition, so we're not in the minority, the few voices here; we're representing a huge sector of society who think the same. So, Minister, when you go out to consultation, and it will be right across Wales, will you be feeding that consultation back before decisions are made and progress is taken?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, as I said, we've already committed to considering licensing of greyhound racing as part of our animal welfare plan. The next step is now to have the petition. What I have said to the Petitions Committee and to Members in the Chamber is that anything we decide to do would have to go out to public consultation, so let's have the debate on 6 March and then we can decide on the next steps.

The final question, question 8, Natasha Asghar.

Improving the Control of Dogs

Natasha Asghar AS: 8. What plans does the Minister have to improve the control of dogs? OQ59114

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Welsh Government's code of practice for the welfare of dogs informs owners of their obligations relating to controlling their dogs and the governing pieces of legislation. We are working with the UK Government on introducing further safeguards through the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thanks, Minister. I've been contacted by a constituent who says that he was recently attacked by a large dog on a public footpath in Newbridge. He goes on to say that he has been bitten twice by dogs in public places over the last six years, and his son has also been bitten as well. The Member for Caerphilly touched on this topic last week, so I know that you are aware of the two recent tragic cases in Caerphilly, when a 10-year-old boy and an 83-year-old lady were attacked and killed by dogs. I am aware that the previous National Assembly considered introducing a Control of Dogs (Wales) Bill previously, but the idea was dropped since 2013. Do you agree, Minister, that the time has come for Wales to reconsider this issue and introduce measures to ensure the safety of people when leaving their homes? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: We know that any dog in the wrong hands has the potential to be dangerous, and what we do is promote responsible ownership. I think that has to be a key priority. You will have heard me say in an earlier answer to Mabon ap Gwynfor about the kept animals Bill that the UK Government are taking through that, unfortunately, it's stalled a bit, but I do think there are provisions that we can take there to really help us. Because we know that dog attacks absolutely ruin lives and they're avoidable, if dog owners ensure that their dogs are in control at all times, and that they are responsible owners at all times too.

I thank the Minister.

3. Topical Questions

The next item, therefore, is the topical questions. There is one question today, and that is to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change and to be asked by Delyth Jewell.

The Bus Emergency Scheme

Delyth Jewell AC: 1. What assurances will the Minister provide that the transition away from bus emergency scheme funding will not lead to the closure of bus routes and render rural bus services unviable? TQ727

Lee Waters AC: An initial extension of three months gives the industry the stability it needs in the short term while we continue to work together with them and local government on planning bus networks that better suit the new travel patterns that we've seen since the end of the pandemic.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Weinidog. I appreciate that the last couple of days have been exceptionally busy for you. The uncertainty that you've touched on about that future funding is causing a great deal of concern, and I welcome the fact that you've extended this transition period for three months. That temporary reprieve, though, is not going to do much to assuage the concern of bus operators. I do appreciate that you're in a difficult position—I know that we touched on this in the Siambr yesterday—but the shift in messaging on this has confused things, I think, and I'd like to get some more information on that. There have been some statements that have been made that this scheme was due to come to an end in March of this year, but that seems to run contrary to the ministerial evidence that was submitted on the draft budget, as well as, as I understand it, the tone of discussions that bus operators have had with the Welsh Government in the months leading up to this change.
I would say, Minister, that you have taken bold steps this week towards realising a net-zero future. The impetus behind that is one I truly welcome; I think that it's incredibly brave. And it's for that reason that I'd urge you that now is surely the most important time for the Welsh Government to be looking at providing certainty of funding for public transport, because if we want to encourage people to use cars less, to make sure that there are viable bus and train networks there available for them, that's the way of making sure that people can get where they need to be—in more ways than one, of course. So, could you please tell us is there any prospect, as you see it at the moment, of a more sustainable footing for a scheme of this nature to continue, or one that replicates it, taking into consideration that it was, of course, one for COVID?

Lee Waters AC: Well, thank you for raising the question, because it is an issue that is concerning us greatly. Clearly, this is not a happy situation. We have a privatised bus network, which relies on commercial operators being able to make a profit. Clearly, the pandemic has turned that business model on its head and it was our intervention, with £150 million of public investment, that kept the sector from going under. It was always meant to be an emergency scheme; it was meant to be temporary. We do spend, every year, £60 million subsidising concessionary fares for older people, we spend a further £2 million subsidising the mytravelpass scheme for 16 to 21-year-olds, plus we provide £25 million of grant to local authorities for the bus services support grant, plus school transport now accounts for about a quarter of local authority education budgets. So, we're putting a lot of public money in, and on top of that, we've had the bus emergency scheme.
Now, in this year's budget, it was always intended to wind that down. One of the things that the industry themselves say is that we are ossifying—that's the word that they've used—bus networks to run along lines that suited passengers pre pandemic, but passenger behaviour has changed. There are fewer older people travelling, there are more leisure journeys than there are commuting journeys. So, we're probably still running a bus pattern based on pre-pandemic behaviour. So, regardless, there does need to be a reconfiguring of the networks. Clearly, we'd prefer to do that in an orderly way. Now, we have been trying to square a very, very difficult budget settlement with our policy aspirations and, as you know, we do have great ambitions for bus. But, essentially, unless we're prepared to fully subsidise the industry, we're not able to do anything to retain services as they are. And this is a problem right across the UK. A quick internet search will show this right across England and Scotland. They're all facing the same.
We haven't seen any additional money coming from the Treasury and the Department for Transport that would produce any consequentials for us to put further funding in this year. We're also having to meet significant cost pressures in the rail industry. So, we are in a fix here. We did manage, through last week, through some very constructive conversations with the industry and local government, to get a reprieve. So, we've got a guarantee of the BES scheme for a further three months, and we hope to work closely with them during that time to try to work out which routes should be maintained within the declining bus budget envelope to give us the best chance to have a skeleton service that then will take us into the new franchise, which is still a couple of years away. So, we'll have a real bridging problem.
I would desperately like to find the money to be able to do it properly, but our options are limited. We know the cost pressures that the Government is under, and together, Labour and Plaid Cymru have prioritised a whole range of funding for free school meals, for the cost-of-living crisis and for a pay deal for the NHS. Now, that money can't be spent twice. So, there simply isn't money floating around within the Welsh budget that we can move onto this, much as I would dearly like to. So, we've got a real challenge now to try, as best we can, to get a smooth glide path out of BES in a way that causes the least amount of disruption to passengers, whilst keeping a core of bus networks that allows people to use public transport and achieve the modal shift, as we want them to do. But, I can't in all conscience say that we're going to be able to do all the things we want to do, given the money that is available. I desperately hope, and I would make a plea to the UK Government, because they're having these problems as well, to put extra money into the transport budget at the UK level to deal with the crisis there is in England, too, which will produce extra consequentials for us that we can then put into the bus system and work with the industry to create a rational network.

Natasha Asghar AS: I'd like to thank my colleague, Delyth Jewell, for actually raising this as a question today. Now, with all due respect, the end of March was set to be the cut-off point for BES 3, as it was commonly known, and now, we are finding out that it obviously gets pushed back to the end of June, which is fine. So, I'd like to know what exactly is going to happen when we reach June, Deputy Minister? You mentioned previously that criteria have to be met for certain bus routes to run. What are those criteria? What support is going to be put into place to help Wales's bus services, and what actions will you be taking so that our rural communities and members who live there don't feel neglected and isolated going forward? Just 24 hours ago, you unveiled the roads review and transport plan—in a rather rushed manner, which is fine—in which you placed a lot of emphasis on public transport. On 31 March 2022, you published 'One network, one timetable, one ticket: planning buses as a public service for Wales', and in this—and I quote—you said that you wanted to create an
'excellent travel option, wherever people need it, whenever people need it, throughout Wales'.
On the one hand, the Welsh Government wants to have more people use more buses and get out of their cars, but on the other hand, you're stripping away a much-needed cash lifeline. It just doesn't add up to me, Deputy Minister. If funding plans are not put into place by cutting financial help for buses, this Government's going to inflict major problems on countless people in all four corners of Wales. I understand that one big bus operator has warned that it's actually going to preparing to cut a quarter of its current services, due to the funding scheme's impending withdrawal. How on earth can you expect people to use public transport more when this Government's actions will ultimately lead to bus services being cut? It's already a nightmare to catch a bus in Wales, so this decision is only going to make things worse if funding is not provided. I'm sure that you'll make the argument, Deputy Minister, that buses simply aren't being used—as you've mentioned previously—as they were in the past, so my question is: what are you doing to increase the use and availability of public transport? Surely, the more people use public transport, the more financially viable they become, and less Government support will be needed. Do you agree, Deputy Minister, that axing this funding going forward completely flies in the face of your Government's policies? And, what alternative help will your Government be providing to bus operators in Wales from June 2023, going forward?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I think I've covered all those points in the answer to Delyth Jewell.

Natasha Asghar AS: No, I don't think you have.

Lee Waters AC: We have a privatised bus system, as I've explained on many occasions, which is a legacy of Conservative privatisation in the 1980s, and we are living with the reality of that now, and it has failed; the business model has failed, there is market failure here, and we're going to see cuts and a disappearing of vital public services. None of us want to see that, but we're also living in an age of austerity; again, a political choice by her party's Governments, where public funding has been reduced next year and we simply do not have the funding available to continue to invest in propping up private companies that are not able to run commercially viable services at the rate that we were through the pandemic. We've been able to find some additional funding this year to extend the scheme temporarily, but the money simply is not in the budget to be able to continue that into the future. I wish it was; it is not, I'm afraid. And I just can't get away from that reality, much as I would like to.
So, I fully concede that this is a pretty grim situation that none of us want to see, but our options are limited.The best we've been able to manage is to get a reprieve for the industry, to work closely with them to try and design as smooth a glide path out as we possibly can, but I can't say with any certainty that we're going to be able to manage that, and there's always the danger that commercial companies will simply decide themselves—which they're free to do in a commercial deregulated bus system—to withdraw services, because they're already having trouble recruiting, retaining and training bus drivers, and being able to keep to the advertised schedule as it is.
So, the bus industry is facing a number of different challenges, and the fact that passengers haven't returned to make those commercial services viable is a profound one, but there's a limit to what the Government can do with this budget settlement from her Government.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for his response, and I share his analysis of the problem. But Governments exist, of course, to solve problems, not simply to rehearse them. And for my constituents, in Blaenau Gwent, when they hear a Minister talking about a skeleton service, they think, 'Well, that's a service that's going to serve Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and a few other places, but we know it won't serve Cwm, it won't serve Blaina, it won't serve Abertillery, Tredegar or Ebbw Vale'. And that isn't a service that we can accept. So, what I would like to hear from the Government—and I know it's a difficult situation, and I think the moves this week to extend the programme for three months does buy a breathing space—but what I want to see from Government is a clear action plan to deliver the public services that yesterday, when he stood in this Chamber, he said he wanted people to use. In my constituency, those public services don't exist today, and if they're not going to exist in six months' time, how do people then reach public services? How do they reach shopping? How do they buy their food? How do they move around, go for training and work? We simply cannot allow this situation to continue. We need a plan for buses and we need it now, and, if the Minister brings through emergency legislation, I will certainly vote to enact it as soon as possible.

Lee Waters AC: Well, if only it were that simple, Presiding Officer. We certainly do have a plan for legislation, and we've consulted on that. We're working through the design of that now, and we hope to introduce it in the Senedd later this year, and we are working, alongside that, with Transport for Wales and local authorities on designing optimum bus networks for their communities. So, we will have a strategic, planned integrated bus network with integrated ticketing between rail and bus. We'll have universal service standards. We'll have pay and conditions across the country. We'll have a significantly better framework in order to operate bus services.
But, in the absence of passenger revenue, and this is the problem here, the only way to keep those services running in the meantime is through direct public support, and our budgets have been cut and we have prioritised cost-of-living pressures, pay deals and free school meals and other things, rightly. I'm not resiling from that at all, but I'm just simply pointing out to Members that they've welcomed those announcements of where this money is going to go, and there are consequences financially to what resource is available. He says it's the job of Government to solve problems. I agree with him. I think we have managed to get ourselves some breathing space to work with the industry to see what we can do, and, if he has other suggestions that we haven't thought of, I'd be very grateful to hear them.

Joel James MS: Deputy Minister, one of the major issues of the initial announcement of the cut of emergency funding was the relatively short notice of it, which meant that some bus companies, especially smaller ones, did not have the necessary financial reserves to keep unprofitable but vital services open, and also the allotted time to change their services to accommodate, resulting in much uncertainty and worry. Last week, Deputy Minister, you spoke about the importance of bus routes and maintaining rural services in terms of meeting our carbon footprint requirements and reducing our reliance on cars. This was re-emphasised yesterday in your roads review announcement. But the inconsistent messaging from the Welsh Government about sustaining the long-term future of the bus network and our rural routes does nothing to assure bus companies or the general public of that importance.
With this in mind, Deputy Minister, do you recognise that this inconsistency in messaging and action is having a detrimental impact, not only on the survivability of bus routes, but the longer term planning and forecasting for rural services? What commitments do you make to provide better engagement with bus companies and the public to ensure longer lead-in times for future funding announcements? Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: Well, let's just be clear; the major threat to the bus industry is Tory austerity. So, let's not get away from that fact, and I'm not going to let the party opposite shift the blame for the situation we are facing. It's their Government's economic policies that have led us to this position.
Now, I don't accept his characterisation of the communication we've had with the bus industry, which we've worked very closely with through the pandemic and beyond. After the publication of the budget, officials met with operators to discuss its contents and its implications. This was followed up in writing, where it was made clear that the budget was draft and was subject to change prior to finalisation. Officials also made it clear that underspends from mandatory concessionary fares, because older people haven't come back in the numbers that we saw before the pandemic, may not be available to bus support because of other budget pressures across the Government, and industry was asked to plan for a reduced funding package during these meetings. So, I don't think it's fair to say that this was sprung on them. We knew that BES was coming to an end, we were doing our best to try and find resource to extend it for as long as possible, and we're in the position that we are in, but we've talked to the industry throughout.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: This Government doesn't do irony, surely. On the one hand, yesterday, the Deputy Minister announced that plans to build many rural roads in Wales were to be ceased, talking at that point about the importance of public transport and how the most disadvantaged, women, the disabled and vulnerable people are the most reliant on public transport, and how important it is, therefore. Then, in discussing the bus programme, the same Deputy Minister said that the funding provided to buses in Wales wouldn't be enough to maintain the current routes and services. Now, it's not as easy to jump on a bike and cycle to the nearest shop in rural Wales. Our communities are miles apart, and services are centred in areas that are a long way away. People have to travel long distances to see a GP, a dentist, to get their education, to shop, to go to a leisure centre and all sorts of other activities. And older people and vulnerable people will live very isolated lives as a result of this.
If bus services aren't properly funded, then you will force more people to rely on private vehicles. And in the absence of a network of charging points, what we will see is a nation like Cuba in rural Wales, with people sustaining the old fossil fuel vehicles for decades to come. But, more than that, you are putting another nail in the coffin of rural Wales, forcing people to leave their communities to live elsewhere because of an absence of transport and access to services. Therefore, can we have an assurance that you will ensure that the current routes, at least, are maintained, with real investment happening in the bus network in rural Wales when the first opportunity arises?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I don't need any lectures on the importance of public transport and the vital role that buses play in rural areas. I really don’t see the point in flippant remarks about people not being able to cycle in rural areas. Who is suggesting that? So, let’s get serious about what the issues are here. We all are concerned about this. No party has a monopoly on that, and I think that my track record speaks for itself in understanding and valuing the importance of buses and of public transport.
We have a real budget problem here, and his party is a part of the co-operation agreement in agreeing the priorities for Government. So, there’s no point in him standing there, lecturing me about the consequences of the funding being available when, jointly together, we've agreed a set of budget priorities, and this wasn’t one of them. So, there are consequences to those choices. To govern is to choose, and he and his party have been part of that process, along with ours.
Now, we had hoped that the passenger numbers would have returned by now, which would have allowed the fare box to recover, and allowed us to put in the significant subsidy that we already do, but taper down the BES scheme. That has not been possible, and additional money has not come from the Treasury to be able to fill that gap. Now, we are still hopeful that the UK Government might respond to its own pressures and provide some emergency funding, which would allow us to extend the support that we give to the industry, which we want to redesign in any case. But, absent of that, unless he knows of some money down the back of the budget sofa that I don’t, then I think that our options are limited, which breaks my heart.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Can I thank Delyth for raising this topical question, and also for the way that she raised it, when she expressed not only her support for the roads review yesterday, and the principles behind it, but also tied this into the other side of that coin, which is providing the multi-modal, sustainable other forms of transport, which this topical question focuses on today?
I cannot give the Minister any easy solutions whatsoever, and I know the bind that he's in. But would he join me in urging all Members of this Senedd Chamber who are demanding more money to sustain this beyond the welcome few months’ breathing space that we have got, to then support representations to the UK Government, who are seeing bus companies threatening to walk away today, not in three months’ time? But also, genuinely, to Plaid Cymru, to say: if there is a way in which we can sequence, renegotiate, nuance some of the aspects of co-operation agreement that would help that Minister go through—[Interruption.] Now, this is a genuine ask for you to look at it, because, if we are serious about maintaining the bus network in Wales, which everybody seems to be, then everything needs to be on the table. So, would he join me in those calls? But, as you've made clear, Minister, it’s not all to do with money. It’s also to do with re-regulation and taking back the disaster of the deregulation under the Conservative Government.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you for that. I think that we do have the right long-term plans, both from the roads review to reallocate funding in the medium to long term, and the re-regulation of the bus industry. Our problem is a short-term one, and the Member rightly points out that the Government in England has not extended by three months its support, as we have, and so the cliff edge is faced there now. And because of the nature of the commercial set-up, it's simply up to operators to surrender their routes in a completely random and uncoordinated way. What we’re trying to do is to have some kind of order and some stability so we can have a rational discussion about what routes might be salvageable if the fare book doesn’t recover, and we’re still hopeful that it might. But, in the absence of additional funding, then our options are very limited. But we’re going to try and do what we can in the time we’ve got and with the money we’ve got to get the best possible outcome, while crossing our fingers that there might be a UK-wide funding settlement that allows us to do more.

Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you for letting me come in on this. The chief executive of Neath Port Talbot council wrote to me regarding the possible devastating impact of the Government’s decision around this on a number of local bus services, and I just want to make the point that it’s not just rural bus services, but services in counties like Neath Port Talbot, and she’s particularly concerned about the impact on young people attending school or college. Student transport to Neath Port Talbot College is via the local bus network, and the routes operate on a commercial basis. She thinks that this route will be made unviable, which will of course lead to unintended consequences across the wider network. There’s a very real possibility that reductions in revenue support will impact on home-to-school transport services as operators reduce their capacity, close their business or increase contract prices to compensate. In the last few days, and even just literally before coming to the Chamber, I’ve heard from residents who rely on buses, who are really concerned about this—a mother concerned about her son’s bus to school, a daughter concerned about her mother’s bus to hospital. I just want to know what assurances you can give the people of Neath Port Talbot that their bus services will remain in place.

Lee Waters AC: Well, as I’ve now explained several times, I’m not in a position to give any assurances beyond the extra three months that we have been able to negotiate. But I desperately hope we’ll be able to both come up with a transition plan, but really what we need is additional funding for us to be able to sustain the bus network while passenger numbers recover and while we move to our new, regulated bus system.

Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. As you know, I wasn’t going to speak in this debate, but I think there are three issues that have come up now that I feel I've got to make. To many of my constituents—in fact, most of my constituents—public transport is buses. Eighty per cent of transport is by bus. Morriston Hospital, as you know, Presiding Officer, or Deputy Presiding Officer, is incredibly difficult to get to, but it’s good by bus, because we’ve got the No. 4. I have two questions, really, for the Minister. Why do trains take priority over buses? To the poorer people, buses are their form of transport. Trains are for the wealthier people. And you say: where do we get the money from? Well, you’ve going to give additional rate relief to large hotels, out-of-town shopping centres, fast food outlets, supermarkets. You've never asked me about that as a Government. In fact, if you had, I’d have said, ‘No, we don’t do that. We should spend it on public services’, and I think that there’s a whole range of things that we could not be spending money on. Spending money on rate relief for large companies who are very profitable is not my idea of a priority, and certainly not a socialist priority.

Lee Waters AC: Well, I understand those points, obviously. In terms of the relative priority of buses versus trains, clearly we need both. We need an integrated transport system. I think it’s wrong to characterise train users as somehow the privileged elite—that’s not the case—but it’s certainly the case that buses carry the majority of passengers, and, like him, buses are my priority. We have investment plans for the rail service, which will be significantly to the advantage of passengers, but they cost money. The money is committed and needs to be followed through, because there are penalty clauses and we wouldn’t realise any meaningful savings were we to stop doing that now. So, we are set on a course to continue investment in the rail industry, which will significantly help our modal shift ambitions, but it remains the case, and I agree, that buses have got the greatest potential. As I’ve explained previously, we’ve been working on a plan to try and reduce bus fares to do just that—to help bus passengers, existing bus passengers, and attract new ones on there. And until the Liz Truss budget blew up our economy we had a sporting chance of being able to do that, but now we simply don’t. That is a matter of deep regret to me. We have to make the best of the situation that we have got, and we are doing all we can to try and work with the industry and local authorities to try and get the best outcome we can with the money available.

And finally, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I just reference the co-operation agreement, as it has been mentioned a number of times? Public transport is in the agreement, including encouraging people to switch to public transport. And I think we all need to take responsibility, in terms of ensuring that priorities are there, but this is part of the cost-of-living crisis, because people are completely dependent on buses, to be able to reach vital services. It's nice to have buses when you have a car, as an alternative route of transport, but for the majority of people I represent, there isn't that choice—a bus is the only choice. And that's a choice that's been taken away from them.
We have to remember as well that a number of people are still scared of leaving their homes, people who would have traditionally used buses—elderly people. Tackling isolation is a huge problem. I know of people who haven't ventured out more than once a week, and that's through taxis, where they would have had their independence with buses previously. So, I think there is an issue to understand why people aren't returning to bus use and how we can support them. Because I don't think it's a matter of just people who are working in offices not returning, because the majority of those have cars and are able to use those. We need a deeper understanding.
I would like to ask specifically, Deputy Minister, what conversations you've been having with bus companies and providers around the bus driver shortages, and the increasing use of agency staff by bus companies, meaning that a lot of the funding that's currently going in through the bus emergency scheme, the profit is actually going outside of Wales, to these agencies. Therefore, with that funding, how do we ensure that we are tackling the bus driver shortage and ensure that the investment that you're making, which is rightly extended for three months now, is actually benefiting users at the end of the day, and not leading to greater profit margins for these agencies?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I don't want to repeat the points I made about the relative priorities that we've jointly agreed—I think the record stands on that, and we as a Government stand behind it too. I'm simply pointing out there are consequences for other budgets. The phenomenon of people being slow to return to public transport is not unique to our country—it's been seen right across the world, and it's particularly acute amongst older people, for reasons I think we can all understand and surmise pretty quickly. So, we do have a vice-like situation, where the fare box hasn't returned, and we have the particularly wicked issue in our country of a privatised system, where routes that aren't commercial will not run without direct subsidy.
On the issue of agency workers and profits, under the bus emergency scheme, we do have strict conditions on how the money is spent, how much profit can be taken out, and we have a reasonable amount of leverage with the bus companies about the decisions that are made. But we can't get around the fact that, whichever way we try and slice and dice this argument, the fundamental issue is that the demand is down, the running costs are up, and the public subsidy is coming to an end. And it's an unhappy situation, there's no denying it, and one that I would desperately wish to avoid, if at all possible. But as I said earlier, there's a chance, and let's hope it comes through, of the UK Government responding to its own bus crisis and we'd be able to benefit from some consequentials. But in the absence of that, we're working closely with the industry to try and get the best settlement we can.

I thank the Deputy Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

No 90-second statements have been submitted this afternoon.

5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Education Maintenance Allowance

So, we'll move on to item 5, which is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) on the education maintenance allowance. And I call on Luke Fletcher to move the motion.

Motion NDM8187 Luke Fletcher, Mike Hedges, Adam Price, Jane Dodds, Heledd Fychan, Carolyn Thomas, Sioned Williams
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes:
a) that the Welsh Government retained education maintenance allowance, unlike the UK Government in England;
b) that in Wales, the value of education maintenance allowance hasnot changed since 2004, and the eligibility thresholds have not changed since 2011;
c) that while education maintenance allowance is an important form of financial support for post-16 learners, it has not kept up with cost-of-living pressures.
2. Calls on the Welsh Government to consider an inflation-linked uplift to the value of education maintenance allowance and a review of the thresholds.

Motion moved.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you everyone who jointly submitted this motion. I move the motion.

Luke Fletcher AS: I will start as I often do when it comes to debating the education maintenance allowance, and praise the Government, and praise the Minister, for continuing to protect it. The fact we have EMA here in Wales, whilst in England they don't, is something we should all be proud of in this place, and it's something we should all be ready to protect.
As we all know, the cost of living has had a detrimental impact on so many of our constituents; amongst them are students, particularly students from low-income households. What we've seen since 2004 is a real-terms cut in EMA. The payment has remained the same, the thresholds have remained the same, since 2011, and now, low-income students are feeling the effects of that more than ever. My £30 got me a lot further than the £30 of a student today.
Now, this is an important debate to have, because EMA and other support programmes can help us to reach our goals in addressing the skills gaps present throughout our economy. This is an investment not just in the futures of people, but in our communities. I'll give an example: all of us are aware of the skills gap in the construction industry, and I've used the construction industry a number of times. The Construction Industry Training Board tells us that 1,400 students within the education system study a construction course. The CITB are also confident that, if all 1,400 of those students, year on year, completed their course, there would be little to no skills gap in construction. The very fact that we have a gap is a sign that things are not right. This also identifies an issue, by the way, with assessing the retention of students, and that is the lack of data around retention. This, of course, must be resolved, but the crux of our debate around EMA has to be around the retention of students.
Of course, I recognise the limitations on the Minister, and I thank him for meeting with me to discuss some of those challenges yesterday, and I hope that his scope for reprioritisation—. And I'm probably coming to the defence of the Minister here—I'm sure he'll be pleased by that—but I would argue, actually, that this goes beyond the education portfolio; this shouldn't just be at his door. What we are talking about here is a social justice issue, what we're also talking about here is an economy and skills issue, and I would hope that Ministers in those portfolios recognise that and will do everything they can to work with the education Minister on this issue.
The state of EMA is not only a financial issue. There are practical problems: problems that can be resolved for very little investment, if any at all. Since September, I've dealt with a number of cases on behalf of students who have seen significant delays in receiving their payments. The worst of them was waiting from September to December for a first payment, and whilst of course payments are backdated, during that period nothing was coming in. In some cases, this meant that some students were unable to attend school or college, which then had an effect on their ability to claim EMA in the first place—a vicious circle—and, in instances like this, the effect on attendance needs to be considered. Worryingly, I had one particular case where a personal tutor had taken a dislike to a student and was recording their attendance down in the wrong way and was refusing to rectify that.
I've raised consistently the complexity of applying for EMA—another practical issue that puts students off applying for EMA in the first place. This is something that must be addressed. And that is why I also believe that there is a need for a top-down review of EMA, looking at the finances, yes, but also the barriers presented to students and how they can overcome them. The reality is, as well, that we have very little literature in Wales around the effects of EMA. We have fantastic work done by the Bevan Foundation. Unfortunately, a lot of it is now out of date, and that's why my office has tried to do our own little review of EMA, but what we do need, of course, is Government support in trying to do that.
I'll conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, by referencing again the crux of this debate. The crux is the retention of low-income students, not just so that they can realise their own potential, but also benefit our communities. For many of these students, we tell them to see education as a long-term investment, but for so many they can't think in the long term. The long term is tomorrow. Unless we support these students now, we will continue to see an issue with retention, as many have no choice but to seek work. I look forward to contributions from other Members and I look forward to hearing from the Minister. Diolch yn fawr.

Jayne Bryant AC: I'm speaking today in my capacity as the Chair of the Children, Young People, and Education Committee, and, as a committee, we very much welcome the motion tabled today, and the opportunity it provides for us to debate the EMA. My fellow committee members and I have had a keen interest in the EMA since we first considered it as part of our scrutiny of the Welsh Government's 2022-23 draft budget. Back then, in January 2022, the Minister for Education and Welsh Language told us that extra cost was a key barrier to increasing the £30 a week EMA rate, and, in the Minister's written response to our report, he provided further detail. The Minister wrotethat, according to a 2014 Welsh Government review, 80 per cent of students
'stated that they would have enrolled on their course without EMA and that EMA is an essential source of financial support for only the minority of students.'
Of course, the 2014 review was out of date at the time of last year's scrutiny of the draft budget. A lot had changed between 2014 and 2022, as we know only too well. By the time we carried out our scrutiny of the 2023-24 draft budget last month, in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis that disproportionately affects children and young people, the 2014 review had become blind to the extent of the financial challenges faced by learners and their families.
We applaud the Welsh Government's decision to retain the EMA. However, we are concerned about the extent to which maintaining the EMA rate and threshold since 2011 has eroded the value of the EMA and cut the number of learners eligible to receive it. Consequently, we made three recommendations relating to the EMA in our 2023-24 draft budget report.
In the first, we call for the Welsh Government to commission an independent review into the EMA, to report no later than December this year. Twenty per cent of eligible students who contributed to that 2014 Welsh Government review wouldn't have enrolled on their course without the EMA. We don't know what that figure would be today. We also don't know how the EMA impacts on learners' ongoing engagement with their studies once the financial implications of engaging in further studies become clear, or whether it helps them to manage cost-of-living pressures more generally. We believe that policy decisions should be based upon up-to-date and accurate information, and an independent review into the EMA is the best way to get that crucial data.
In our second recommendation, we ask that the Welsh Government provide us with an update on the work it committed to undertake in March 2022 to understand what the allowance rate and income thresholds would look like today for the same proportion of learners when compared to 2004, and how much additional budget that would require. We welcomed the Minister's constructive response back in March last year, but unfortunately we are yet to see the outcome of that work. We look forward to reading about it in the Welsh Government's response to our budget report in a few weeks' time.
Our third recommendation urges the Welsh Government to reconsider its decision to maintain the EMA. Of course, we know full well that the EMA cannot eradicate child poverty, but, from our committee's work and from the work we undertake in our constituencies and regions, we believe that the EMA can help to insulate some young people and their families from the crushing impacts of the cost-of-living crisis. The EMA is no golden bullet, but it might just be that extra incentive that some young people need to take the next step in their education.
For the sake of those young people and their families, we urge the Welsh Government to accept our recommendations and look at this important issue once again. For this reason, I fully welcome this debate and will be supporting the motion. Diolch yn fawr.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Luke, for introducing this debate on a subject of such importance in terms of anti-poverty measures and in response to the cost-of-living crisis.

Heledd Fychan AS: This isn't an issue on which I get countless constituents contacting me, but, for those that do, I know the difference it makes, the difference it makes to their families and to those individuals.
In terms of other measures, of course it's not just a responsibility for the Minister for education, as you outlined, rightly so; it is a cross-Government, cross-portfolio responsibility, certainly social justice. We've had a debate about buses in terms of the importance of making public transport affordable. There wouldn't be as much of a need for the EMA and for the rise if public transport costs were free for young people, for instance. So, there are a number of measures that we could look at, so that it's not just about the EMA.
My concern, as well as the value, currently—. I of course welcome the fact that we've continued it here in Wales. I dread to think of the situation for those young people were we not in this situation. But, obviously, that £30 doesn't go very far compared to where it used to go. We need to really think about how we ensure that this is no longer a barrier to those young people pursuing education, if we are able to increase, as should happen, in terms of an inflation-linked uplift, which is in this proposal.
The issue I also want to focus on, which Luke referenced as well, is access to the EMA for those who are eligible. It is concerning that casework that has come in to me has been linked to not giving the money to students for a particular reason. In the guidance, it says:
'as long as you meet your school or college's attendance, performance and behaviour requirements.'
Well, that can be interpreted in a number of different ways. Also, a number of these young people are vulnerable—they have very complex family situations at times, they may be required to care for a parent or care for another family member, which means that they may miss some sessions, which makes them then ineligible for the grant as a whole, meaning that that has a knock-on effect on attendance the following week.
I do really think we need to be working with colleges and so on to ensure that these aren't barriers, that if you miss one particular session you're not then penalised, because there should be that compassion and understanding. In the same way, if we miss a session here in the Senedd because of whatever reason, be it because of a family emergency, we don't miss out in terms of our salaries, so why are we penalising the most vulnerable young people?
Also, in terms of behaviour requirements, we've had a lot of evidence come through in terms of the impact of COVID on mental health, the lack of access to services and the delays in accessing services. That also has an impact on attendance at times. We've seen some colleges maintain virtual options to join, meaning that that can count towards attendance, and others not. So, it's quite a complex situation, I think.
The key thing is ensuring that those that need the EMA receive it, that there isn't a delay in receiving it, and also that we don't put in bureaucratic steps. The truth of the matter is we should be supporting people through the cost-of-living crisis, so that child poverty rates aren't at the levels they are currently. We need to make public transport affordable. But whilst there needs to be solutions that go across Government, this is a key element, and I fully support Luke's proposal. Not having the EMA would penalise those that desperately need it, and not increasing it will just provide a further barrier to those that need it.

Mike Hedges AC: I was very pleased to take the opportunity to co-sign this when Luke asked me to. In fact, he had it back by return of e-mail because I believe this is incredibly important. I want to make two points—firstly the importance of EMA and secondly the importance of increasing it in line with inflation. Of course, the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats opposed it when it was introduced by the Labour Westminster Government. The Liberal Democrat education spokesperson, Phil Willis, said:
'There are significantly more important things to do with £20m than give young people a Christmas bonus.'
Conservative spokesperson Chris Grayling said:
'This is another blatant example of the government trying to fiddle the figures. Bribing young people to sign up for courses they may not complete, might make ministers' targets look achievable—but they do absolutely nothing to help solve this country's...skills shortage.'
I think that tells you what the Conservatives at Westminster and the Liberal Democrats at Westminster think of our young people, and think of people who are less well off. I won't use the word 'poverty' because that's a relative term, but people who are less well off. I rarely talk about it myself—I always feel it's slightly insulting to my parents to do so—but many of us come from backgrounds that were less well off. Not many in this Chamber, but many of us in my constituency and many of my friends.
The Westminster Government and the Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition took very little time—it only took them until 20 October 2010—to end the education maintenance allowance scheme in England, because they don't believe in it. They don't believe in helping young people. They don't believe in helping young people whose parents can't afford to send them to public school. This is why we need a more representative Parliament, so that we have people with different life experiences, who understand from their life experience the benefit of EMA-type support.
I really want to congratulate the Welsh Government for keeping the EMA when it had been cancelled in England. It would have been so easy to cancel it. There you had a simple saving. It would generate very little noise because the people who get these sorts of payments are not the people who write letters to the Western Mail. They're not the people who go out complaining; they're the people who suffer and have problems.
I would like to go through some details from my experience as a college lecturer. Without EMA, many students would not have been able to undertake their studies; many more driven by their family's economic circumstances would, at some stage, have had to drop out. Many of my former students ended up in well-paid ICT jobs, helping both them and the economy. EMA was the difference between unemployment followed by low-skilled and low-paid employment and becoming skilled and well paid. EMA was and is life-changing for many people. It also benefits our economy, increasing the amount of skilled workers. This is investing in young people, investing in our economy and, perhaps, it's one of the best forms of investment in economic development. Bribing companies to bring their branch factories here has failed for as long as I can remember—I'll just mention LG.
Was it initially abused? Yes—by students turning up and doing nothing. This was resolved by continuing payments after satisfactory progress had been made. And to reply to Heledd Fychan, from my experience as a college lecturer, any student who attended regularly who had a good reason for not being there who was making good progress was not going to be stopped getting their EMA. I'm speaking on behalf University and College Union members—we would not have done that.
According to the Bevan Foundation, increasing the EMA by 10 per cent would add £3 a week for everyone receiving it. Clearly, £3 a week is not much. There is an acknowledgment that learners in further education face just as significant a financial pressure as higher education students, who recently had a 9.4 per cent increase, which, I'd better add, is very much needed and very much supported. To many in this Chamber, £3 is less than a cup of coffee. To EMA students, it can be two or three meals. That's two or three meals out of 14 meals a week. This idea that people have three or four meals a day doesn't run for people who are poor. Crucially, it would establish an important principle of annual uplift, matching the UK Government's uprating of most social security benefits.
The Bevan Foundation estimate the cost of an inflation-linked increase will be around £1.7 million. Raising the eligibility to include another 1,000 students would cost £1.1 million. This is obviously affordable from the Welsh Government budget. The Finance Committee discussed this and were in favour of such an uplift unanimously, including the Conservative Member. If anyone doubts its affordability, just check every month how much additional money is released by the Welsh Government to good and deserving recipients: £1 million here, £5 million there, £300,000—you get them every week or so. My argument is that giving money to EMA students is giving it to good and deserving recipients.
Finally, thank you to the Labour Government, which kept the EMA; now is the time to start annual uplifts.

Sioned Williams MS: The cost-of-living crisis is going to do exactly what the COVID crisis did. I've heard so many witnesses to inquiries held by both of the committees of which I'm a member—equalities and social justice and children, young people and education—repeat this, or words to that effect, when referring to the undeniable evidence that not only will the impact of this crisis again be deeper in the most deprived areas of Wales, which, of course, will double the death rates of those with less social deprivation, but it's that same inequality and those same vulnerabilities that the cost-of-living crisis is exacerbating.
This is why the cost-of-living crisis, in my opinion, has to be seen in the same terms as the COVID crisis. That is why those most vulnerable to potential harm should also be shielded by Government in this crisis. As with COVID, the worst-affected will be those who already suffer socioeconomic disadvantage and groups of people who already face barriers as regards housing, employment opportunities, income gaps, health inequalities and education. Poverty is affecting young people aged 16 plus in a unique way. Rising food costs, transport costs and equipment costs make education less affordable to those from low-income families. Young people from less affluent backgrounds can't turn to their families for financial support and many are experiencing real hardship: no heating, little to eat, some facing homelessness. How are they meant to focus on study?
The needs of this group of young people, of course, in my opinion, should be fully addressed in a comprehensive new child poverty strategy, which we have long called for, with measurable targets and outcomes. The Welsh Government, of course, does not have the power to stop bills soaring and can't ensure that the Tory Westminster Government increases benefits so that no-one has to rely on foodbanks or face cutting down on heat. But this motion speaks to one action it can take to help people who are most at risk of the harms of the cost-of-living crisis: young people from low-income families. Without the support they need, of which the EMA should and could form a part, they will be harmed by the consequences of being denied the chance to fulfil their educational potential, as Mike Hedges rightly illustrated, and the opportunity gap that continues to blight our country will deepen.
The Welsh Government's response to the calls of anti-poverty campaigners such as the Bevan Foundation to uprate the EMA, both in terms of the allowance and in terms of the eligibility threshold, has been that it is simply not affordable. What really isn't affordable is to limit the potential of our most disadvantaged young people who already have far fewer opportunities than better-off learners to lead prosperous, healthy and fulfilling lives. I urge Members to support this motion.

Vikki Howells AC: Thanks to Luke Fletcher and other Members for tabling this motion today and giving us the chance to discuss what is a very important issue: how we support our young people so that they can get the most out of their education. It follows on very naturally from last week's debate on the Children, Young People and Education Committee's report into pupil absence, and of course it's very timely when we are all aware of the cost-of-living pressures every person in Wales is facing.
As a starting point and as the first part of the motion reminds us, it is of course to be welcomed that the Welsh Government made the decision to retain education maintenance allowance here. That was in stark contrast, of course, to the Cameron-Clegg UK coalition Government. Seemingly, one of their first actions on taking office was to scrap EMA for English students. I'm reminded that Michael Gove was the education Secretary responsible for that, so it's interesting to see that his commitment to levelling down was just as strong back in 2010. Since then, EMA has been used well by young people in Wales. It has provided an additional level of support, enabling them to stay on in school or college, to continue their education or training, to try and maximise their chances and opportunities. And it's important that we remember this isn't just for young people taking A-levels or BTECs, but it's also used to support young people living in Wales taking basic or independent living skills qualifications too.
I regularly witnessed the positive impact EMA had when I was teaching. It made a real difference and ensured that eligible young people could stay on to continue and complete their studies and achieve their full potential. Many of those young people in receipt of EMA also had part-time jobs, and these would often be on zero-hour contracts, with pressure from employers to work longer and longer hours, and that of course could have a detrimental impact on their studies. With my pastoral role, that became a familiar pattern year after year. I know from my discussions with schools and colleges in my area that it's still a challenge for those 16 to 18-year-olds, with the need or desire to earn more contrasting with study requirements. EMA provides that source of help so young people who may not be able to rely on family support can focus on their courses.
As the motion also reminds us, 2011 saw a positive change to EMA in Wales, where a previous system of banding depending on household income was replaced with a flat rate of £30 for learners. However, as other speakers have mentioned, that's the same flat rate as when EMA was introduced in 2004 and the same flat rate at which it is awarded now. That, I believe, is problematic. By my estimation, in terms of purchasing power, £30 in 2004 is equivalent to just under £59 today, so the value of EMA has been significantly impacted as costs have got higher and higher. Things that EMA was and is used for have become more expensive, so that the payment just won't stretch as far. This will of course have consequences for our young people and the decisions that they make, as I touched on earlier. More and more of our young people will be facing difficult choices and may be making decisions not to continue in education or having to work longer hours in their part-time jobs, which will also have an impact on their studies and on their mental well-being. Others may find that it's not even about having to make a choice at all, finding themselves having to leave education or training completely.
Thresholds for household income have simply remained static. With that being the case, I would like to wholeheartedly endorse the suggestion in the second point of the motion. I hope that Welsh Government will consider a review of both the rate of EMA and the threshold at which it's awarded. It's high time that a detailed review of the working of EMA is considered to help build the evidence base so that we can determine what can be done, how we can best support our 16 to 18-year-olds and meet their needs so that they can continue in school or college. We know that there is tremendous pressure on resources, but EMA is a lifeline to many of our young people who are eligible for it. We must focus on giving them the right support so that they can succeed. I look forward to voting in support of this motion today.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much to Luke Fletcher for putting forward this motion and to everyone who co-supports it.
The EMA has provided vital support to many students in Wales since it was first introduced. It was first introduced as a pilot back in 1999 before it was rolled out across the United Kingdom in 2004-05.Regretfully, the Government in England abolished it as an allowance, but it’s a sign of its popularity and its importance that the Welsh Government, the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive all continued with the scheme.
The scheme was thoroughly audited 15 years ago, and the research demonstrates clearly that the number of students in receipt of the allowance was increasing, and that a greater number of students were staying on to undertake their studies. These findings were particularly true of students from more deprived backgrounds. And, this allowance is particularly important for children in care.
I have heard of learners who received the allowance and have then go on to study a number of different fields of endeavour. I spoke recently with one girl who received the allowance and went on to study nursing. This is a perfect example of public money being used as an investment in our young people. Thank goodness for the allowance and thank goodness for her.So, there is clear benefit to this vital allowance. But, the need is so much more acute now that we are facing a cost-of-living crisis, which is having a greater impact on the poorest and the most disadvantaged.
Now, I recognise that the Government has maintained the grant here in Wales, and I praise it for doing so, but the unfortunate truth is that far too many children are continuing to lose out or are leaving further education for two main reasons related to the EMA, as noted in the motion, namely that it isn’t enough, and the financial threshold to access the allowance is far too low.
Back in 2010, households had to earn less than £31,000, or £42,000 in today’s money, to be able to access the grant. Today, the threshold is almost half that in terms of value, namely £23,000.The evidence that I have seen shows that more learners are seeking support despite being in receipt of the EMA. They need help with the cost of courses, meals and technical equipment. And some counties are refusing to pay for transport to attend post-16 education, so in these cases, the EMA is crucial so that learners can access educational opportunities.Also, due to poverty within the family, many young people use the allowance to cover living costs from one day to the next. They use it to buy food, to pay for transport, to buy uniforms and for support for learning, and so on. Some depend on it because they live independently, to pay their bills, their rent and so on.And, as I mentioned, the funding therefore is insufficient. A number of learners are also having to work to earn enough to pay their living costs. And this in turn, as we've heard, can impact their education.
So, once again, I want to conclude by thanking everyone, particularly Luke for tabling this debate. I warmly welcome the commitment that the Government has to continuing and retaining the allowance, but I'll ask the Minister, in his response, if he will change the accessibility threshold, and when he has the opportunity, to increase the allowance further, please. Thank you.

David Rees AC: I call on the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Members will be aware from previous debates and questions on this issue that we as a Government recognise the positive impact that the EMA can have on young people, and we are still committed, in accordance with the programme for government, to maintaining the allowance. Along with our other commitments to young people and with an annual budget of £17 million, the EMA makes it possible for more than 18,000 young people to remain in post-compulsory education annually.

Jeremy Miles AC: However, Dirprwy Lywydd, I understand the concerns that EMA has not increased for some time, and welcome the views that Members have expressed on where we can further improve our commitment to young people. I appreciate that young people are also very much feeling the financial strain of the current cost-of-living crisis.
We are continuing to model what impact potential changes might have, including in terms of current and future financial commitments, and we will all want to ensure that any change would be meaningful and impactful as well as affordable. Despite our current serious financial limitations in considering an increase in the rate of EMA, we have expanded the eligible cohort to include some of the most vulnerable young people in Wales. This includes those impacted by Brexit, family members of those with protected immigration status, and young people fleeing the war in Ukraine.The process remains that all young people can apply for EMA at any point in the academic year and, where their family circumstances change, resulting in a drop in income, we encourage young people to apply for EMA with a current-year income assessment. Our schools and colleges work closely with their learners to ensure that they are receiving the support they're entitled to.
We have exemptions to means testing for some our most vulnerable young people. Those in care and foster homes, those on certain benefits, those responsible for a child of their own and those in the youth justice system will all receive the weekly allowance without assessment. To further encourage applications and to simplify the process for young people, the Student Loans Company is developing a new system for applications to be made online and for supporting evidence to be uploaded. We anticipate that this will be ready for the academic year 2023-24 applications. The option for completing a paper application will also remain.
As a means-tested grant, the application process does require a lot of information. Where a student may feel overwhelmed or discouraged by the application process, I would encourage them to speak to their learning centre who can help them complete the necessary forms and applications. We are not ourselves aware of any delays to processing of EMA applications, but do understand that incomplete applications may lead to a delay, and I'm grateful for the discussion I've had with Luke Fletcher in relation to some of the practical implications of EMA payment and have committed to work on any practical issues that are capable of being resolved. On the other hand, applications received within 13 weeks of the course start date will receive backdated payments to the start of the course, even if the evidence came in late, while applications received after that can still receive payment from the time they submit their applications. Students do need to have their attendance confirmed—as many Members have referred to in the debate—to the Student Loans Company by their course provider in order for payment to be released. But if they have missed a payment, they should speak to their learning centre. With the consent of the student, in addition to this, my officials can also speak to the Student Loans Company FE team to help progress any difficulties or delays with applications.
It is important, in the way that Mike Hedges highlighted in his contribution, for young people to discuss their personal circumstances with their course tutor or their provider's EMA co-ordinator. Non-attendance does not always need to result in non-payment. The EMA scheme does permit discretion for those who are unable to maintain a consistent pattern of attendance, perhaps due to caring responsibilities or factors beyond their control, and we have recently issued a fresh reminder to all learning centres to highlight where that discretion can be applied and to ensure that students understand how they can approach them for additional support where needed.
Young people in receipt of EMA can also access a range of additional support. Schools and colleges can offer loan ICT equipment and learning resources, removing the need for their EMA to be spent on essential course items. They may also be able to get free or subsidised transport during their course from their local authority. In addition, over £6 million is being provided to further education institutions for the academic year 2022-23 for the financial contingency fund. This aims to ensure that learners across Wales, including those in receipt of EMA, are not inhibited by financial constraints. For example, eligible learners can receive additional money towards course fees, course materials, childcare costs, food, and other study-related items.
I'd like to thank Luke Fletcher for the debate and to the Labour and Plaid Cymru Members who have supported the motion and contributed to this important debate. To conclude, as a Government, we continue to respond to the current crisis with wide-reaching programmes of household support that will cushion our young people and their families on low incomes. The Government will support the motion today, recognising the limitations on our room for action but also the merits of a review. Recognising Jayne Bryant's contribution, I will be writing to the committee shortly in terms that I hope the committee will welcome. In the meantime, we will continue to use every single lever available to us to support our young people and ensure that we do all we can to reflect the principle that money should never be a barrier to accessing education.

I call on Luke Fletcher to reply to the debate.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I suppose I've become quite predictable now in terms of what I ask about in the Chamber. I've been reliably informed that I actually talk about EMA in my sleep, much to the annoyance of my wife.
But, you know, when we're out in the community, what I'm often asked is, 'What has the Senedd done for us?' EMA is one of the first things I always point to. It was protected by Government, and I would reiterate again how grateful I am, and how a younger version of me was grateful as well for Welsh Government protecting that.
Vikki, I think, raised a very important point. Here's the conflict facing low-income students: 'Do I stay in education, or do I go out and earn?' That was a question I asked myself, and had I chosen the latter, I might not be stood here today now, and that probably would have made the lives of a lot of people a lot easier, but nonetheless, it was EMA, I firmly believe, that got me to this point, amongst other support provided by Welsh Government.
In terms of the work that's being done by committees, Jayne referenced the work done by the young people and education committee—really, really fantastic and worthwhile work. There was work done by the Finance Committee; Mike referenced that—again, fantastic work. And my own committee, as well, looked at EMA as part of our scrutiny around the young person's guarantee. There seems to be a consensus forming, and that's why I'm quite glad as well that the Government is willing to support this motion, of course with the caveat that there are limitations, and I'll very much look forward to seeing the Minister's response to Jayne's committee around a top-down review. I am incredibly grateful, as well, that we'll continue to work on the practical elements, and I look forward to sharing some of the information that we've had through my office on the survey of students' experiences, and I know that the Minister is committed to seriously working on this.
I think Heledd, as well, was really right in what she said. We aren't flooded with casework relating to EMA, but we are dealing with vulnerable people. We talk about getting young people involved in politics, and Mike is right; we need more people from different backgrounds. I've always advocated for getting more working class people involved in politics. Now, what better way would there be to demonstrate that this place is worth getting involved in than by delivering something like EMA that will have a direct impact on especially students from low-income households but also their families?
Fundamentally, I am committed to making this happen. I'm committed to working with the Minister. This isn't, for me, any sort of party political debate. This is something that is personal. I am a direct result of EMA, and I hope that all Members in this Chamber will work cross-party and work with myself and the Minister to make increasing the payments and increasing the thresholds a reality, because God knows, a number of low-income students across Wales need that support, now more than ever.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. Yes, I hear objection, and therefore I defer voting on this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Invasion of Ukraine and supporting Ukrainian refugees

Item 6 this afternoon is the first Welsh Conservatives debate—the invasion of Ukraine and supporting Ukrainian refugees. I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion.

Motion NDM8204 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that this month marks the first anniversary of Vladimir Putin’s illegal invasion of Ukraine.
2. Condemns the invasion of and continuous aggression against Ukraine, its sovereignty and territorial integrity by the Russian Federation.
3. Applauds the resilience of the Ukrainian people in the face of Russian brutality.
4. Welcomes the military, financial and humanitarian aid provided to Ukraine by the UK and Welsh Governments.
5. Thanks the people of Wales for their response to the conflict, including their generosity and the welcome provided to Ukrainian refugees.
6. Calls on the Welsh Government to publish a long-term plan to support Ukrainian refugees in Wales.

Motion moved.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. I'm pleased to move this motion. The twenty-fourth of February 2023 marks the first anniversary of Vladimir Putin's illegal and barbaric invasion of its smaller sovereign neighbour, Ukraine. But this smaller neighbour has the heart of a lion and has roared back, although the impact of ongoing attacks by Russia has been felt hard by the Ukrainian people. All civilised peoples will be horrified that Putin is planning to celebrate this gruesome anniversary by launching another brutal and inhumane offensive. If only the civilised people of Russia could see and hear what horrors Putin and his cronies are perpetrating in their name, as he falsifies the narrative and silences the debate in that great country.

Mark Isherwood AC: According to the latest estimates from Norway, the conflict has wounded or killed 180,000 Russian soldiers and 100,000 Ukrainian troops. Other western sources estimate that the war has caused 150,000 casualties on each side. In late January, the United Nations estimated that 18,000 civilians had been killed or wounded in the fighting, but said the real figure was likely much higher, with western sources stating that 30,000 to 40,000 civilians had lost their lives in the conflict. Ukrainian authorities say at least 400 children have been killed. Kyiv also alleges that Moscow has forcibly deported more than 16,000 children to Russia or areas controlled by Moscow-backed separatists.According to the UN Refugee Agency, more than 8 million Ukrainians have been forced to flee Ukraine since the war broke out—the largest refugee crisis in Europe since the second world war. Neighbouring Poland hosts the largest share of these refugees, with more than 1.5 million of them. More than 5 million people have been displaced inside the country.
Landmines are a threat to civilians, and experts warn that de-mining could take decades. According to the European Union's justice commissioner, around 65,000 suspected war crimes have been reported throughout the war. UN investigators have accused Russia of committing war crimes on a massive scale in Ukraine, including bombings, executions, torture and sexual violence. According to the commander in chief of Ukraine's armed forces, the active front line north to south runs along 900 miles of territory. The World Bank, in October, said it expected Ukraine's economy to contract by 35 per cent in 2022, and the Kyiv school of economics stated in November that the war has caused more than £34 billion in economic losses in the agricultural sector, and in January it estimated that it would cost £138 billion to replace all the infrastructure ravaged by this war.
President Zelenskyy's visit to the UK last week was a testament to his country's courage, determination and fight, and to the unbreakable friendship between Ukraine and the UK and its nations.Those who have studied events in the 1930s know that we cannot let Putin succeed. As Churchill said,
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.'
Since 2014, the UK has provided vital training to Ukrainian forces and is now expanding this from soldiers to marines and fighter jet pilots. Ukrainian troops are already being trained in the use of Challenger 2 tanks, which are expected to be sent to Ukraine next month. The UK Government has also announced new sanctions for those who've helped Putin build his wealth and firms that have profited from the war. The UK led the way by donating a squadron of 14 Challenger 2 battle tanks, with armoured recovery and repair vehicles, encouraging the US, Germany and other European allies to send tanks as well, helping Ukraine as it battles to repel and expel Russian forces and Wagner group mercenaries.
As the UK steps up support for Ukraine's battle for liberation, it is donating hundreds more armoured and protected vehicles, including Bulldog vehicles, 24 AS90 Howitzer guns, dozens more unmanned aerial drones, hundreds of sophisticated missiles, 100,000 artillery rounds and a £28 million package to help with bridging and mine clearing, alongside other support.

Mark Isherwood AC: The UK will deliver £2.3 billion or more of military support for Ukraine’s campaign against Russian aggression this year, the same or more than last year, when the UK sent more than 10,800 anti-tank missiles, five air defence systems, 120 armoured vehicles, ammunition, drones and more.
Over 1,320 individuals and entities have been sanctioned, and £275 billion-worth of assets frozen, hitting the Russian economy, hobbling Russia’s military-industrial complex, and punishing Putin and allies, including 120 oligarchs worth over £140 billion combined.
Two hundred and seventeen thousand nine hundred visas have been issued to help Ukrainians come to the UK. On 7 February, this comprised 152,100 issued as part of the Homes for Ukraine scheme and 65,800 issued through the Ukraine family scheme. The UK has also provided £1.5 billion of economic and humanitarian support to help the Ukrainian people, with £1.3 billion to help keep Ukrainian public services running, and around £220 million in humanitarian aid for basic necessities.
The latest UK Government figures at 7 February showed that 8,762 visas have been granted to people from Ukraine who have sponsors in Wales, and that 6,437 Ukrainians had arrived in Wales, 53 per cent supported by the Welsh Government and the remainder by Welsh households. There have been additional arrivals under the Ukraine family scheme. The Welsh Government set up its supersponsor scheme to provide accommodation support and care in Wales to 1,000 people from Ukraine. It also removed the need for applicants to be matched to a named person before they’re cleared to travel to the UK through the visa system. However, the scheme was temporarily paused to new applications on 10 June last year. The Welsh Government stated that this would allow time for arrangements to be made for the next stage of accommodation, and that all applications made before 10 June 2022 would be processed. It therefore remains unclear how many of the 4,614 issued visas sponsored by the Welsh Government applies to applications made before 10 June 2022, and how many to a supersponsor scheme reopened after the Welsh Government considered that it had made arrangements for the next stage of accommodation.
In her humanitarian response statement yesterday, the social justice Minister said that over 1,300 of those Welsh Government has sponsored have now moved into longer term accommodation. In this context, I'll also repeat what I stated when responding to the Minister’s statement yesterday:
‘It is reported that many Ukrainian refugees in Wales have spoken to the media about the difficulties that many of them are having finding and maintaining housing accommodation. For example, Ukrainian refugees who've had to leave their sponsor homes have been told that welcome centres aren't an option for safe accommodation, and landlords appear reluctant to take on refugee tenants due to concerns over stability of future earnings.’
Responding to the Minister three weeks ago, I also referred to the case of the mother and daughter who fled fighting in Ukraine but now face homelessness as their Welsh sponsor pulls out, who cannot afford private rent and who fear they could end up on the streets. I further noted that the Irish Government has announced that it would be delivering 700 modular homes for Ukrainian refugees this year, including 200 accommodating 800 Ukrainian refugees, built by Easter.
From 2003, I campaigned with the housing sector, warning the Welsh Government that Wales faced an affordable housing supply crisis unless urgent action was taken. Regrettably, they ignored us, causing the affordable housing supply crisis in Wales today. The Welsh Government should therefore be considering this option, the option of modular housing, when it receives its share of the UK Government’s new £150 million fund for Ukrainian housing support. In this context, the humanitarian corridor work of Wrexham’s Polish integration support centre, following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, includes proposals for the construction of temporary housing. Further, the focus of Berwynprison in Wrexham on rehabilitation through work includes the production of eco-friendly modular housing.
The Welsh Government's Ukrainian humanitarian response has, to a large extent, been dependent upon engagement with third sector organisations, including Link International, bringing together community and faith groups and third sector organisations, working with north Wales local authorities, in collaboration with other statutory agencies and the Welsh Government; Wrexham's Polish integration support centre, supporting Ukrainian children, older people, disabled people and soldiers; the Red Cross, supporting and housing the families of the pupils that Laura Anne Jones and I met in Denbighshire last Friday; Rotary clubs that have donated over £6 million in cash and kind and given more than 100,000 volunteer hours supporting Ukraine and its people over the last 12 months; the response to the invasion of Ukraine by the Catholic Bishops Conference for England and Wales; and many, many more.
We must collectively thank the people of Wales for their kindness, generosity and determination to support our Ukrainian friends. The military, financial and humanitarian aid provided to Ukraine by both the UK and Welsh Governments has been vital in supporting the fight against tyranny. But we can't become complacent now. I therefore call on all Members to support this motion, which calls on the Welsh Government to publish a long-term plan to support Ukrainian refugees in Wales, ensuring Wales can truly be a nation of sanctuary. Diolch yn fawr.

Alun Davies AC: I thank the Conservative party for tabling this debate; it's very timely, of course, because next week we will be marking the first anniversary of this invasion. I think, at a time when people seek to create divisions in politics, it's good to have the opportunity to come together as well. I was listening to Mark Isherwood opening the debate, and I noticed there were two words he used that are peppered in my speech as well, in my notes here: the first is 'brutality' and the second is 'generosity'.
When you see an international event such as the invasion of Ukraine, you see brutality at its most raw, and we saw this time last year the build-up of forces around Ukraine and the lies of Putin in claiming that they weren't planning an invasion of that country. Since then, we've certainly seen the commissioning of war crimes by Vladimir Putin, and he needs to be held to account for the actions of his soldiers over this last year.
But we've also seen him practise brutal repression in his own country, in Russia. I read yesterday of the story of a student who had mentioned on her Instagram that she opposed the war in Ukraine. She wears an electronic tag and is facing years of imprisonment, simply for saying that she opposes the Government on Instagram. It's a brutality that is being visited on Ukraine, but it's also a brutality that has been visited on the people of Russia. We need to be able to say together as a Parliament that we will stand against this brutality, and that we will stand with the generosity of people across Wales and across the international community who have supported the people of Ukraine, who have reached out to the people of Ukraine.
Myself and the Counsel General, Mick Antoniw, who has led in an extraordinary, emotional way a response in Wales to this invasion, we stood at the border on the way to Lviv in December, and we stood there for three hours amongst other vehicles full of aid being given by people in other countries to the people of Ukraine. We saw human generosity, human commitment and human solidarity in those trucks and vans and cars, in that snow, waiting to cross the border to give to the people of Ukraine everything that they'd been able to collect in their home countries—generosity in action, generosity of spirit and a generosity of commitment and solidarity.
Our minds move, at the moment, to next week's anniversary, and we see again the troops being mobilised on the borders of Ukraine, and we see again that Putin is determinedto crush the spirit of the people of Ukraine. So, we will say again that we will stand with the people of Ukraine, and we will say again that we will continue to act in a spirit of solidarity to ensure that the people of Ukraine receive the support that they require, not only to withstand the invasion and the cruelty and the brutality, but also to then rebuild their country afterwards.
We've seen, in my time, trying here to help support the people of Ukraine—. We saw what that meant for people in Lviv in December. Tomorrow, we will leave here again to travel to Kyiv next week with more aid, more support. Members on all sides of this Chamber, in all parties represented in this Parliament, have worked together in order to provide the support that is required to deliver that aid and that commitment to the people of Ukraine. And that is a testament, I think, to the power of a parliamentary democracy.
We have seen also the importance of the structures of our security, our defence and of our economic prosperity in the west tested as never before. It was important this week to see NATO leaders meeting and recommitting to ensuring that the Ukrainian army has the munitions that it requires to defend its territory. And we need to say in the plan—which I accept the Conservatives have asked for, and I would like to see it as well—that we will support the Welsh defence industry in sustaining the munitions production that is required in order to defend the people of Ukraine. We will continue to argue for the vehicles, the tanks and the weaponry that is required to defend the people of Ukraine. Warm words matter for nothing when you are fighting a dictator. What we need to be able to do is ensure that Ukraine has the bullets and the shells and the munitions to defend its territory as well.
Bringing my remarks to a close, Deputy Presiding Officer, war impacts people. It impacts human beings. The images that we saw over the last year on our tv screens have been truly heartbreaking. Mothers and fathers crying over their children. Children crying over their fathers and mothers. Myself and the Counsel General witnessed last December a child saying goodbye to a father in uniform, standing at the bus stop in Lviv in the early morning darkness, in tears, saying goodbye. Images that we have seen before, but images that we saw in black and white, and not images that we expected to see in the harsh technicolour of the twenty-first century.
Many of us have spent a lifetime campaigning for peace on this continent, and have witnessed the reality of genocide on this continent in our lifetimes. The lesson that we must learn from Ukraine is that we provide all the support necessary to defend Ukraine, its people, its population. We help and work with Ukraine to rebuild the country afterwards. And then, we hold to account, in international tribunals, the people who have practised this brutality and this war. They then have to accept responsibility for the lives that they have broken and the damage that they have done to Ukraine and our European homeland. Thank you.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: First off, I would like to reiterate and endorse the words that have already been spoken, and I would like to put on record our thanks, as Members here in the Senedd, to those of you who have been over to see at first hand the need over there. I think that it's fair to say that thebrutality of this horrendous war is borne most painfully of the backs of those defending their homeland, the civilian population and many, many women and children. Many will have been too young to even understand why their lives have been suddenly and brutally uprooted.
The warmth and generosity, however, of communities right across the United Kingdom has shown us at our best. Even in my own constituency, across Aberconwy, local people were very quick to want to offer their hand of support, their homes as a roof over the heads of those fleeing Putin's appalling war in Ukraine. They showed that kindness and warmth—the same kindness and warmth that has always been part of the British spirit.
However, there are still some issues with the day-to-day settlement and the integration schemes, and it's those that I would like to speak about today, as the shadow Minister for housing, because these accommodation issues do worry me. Many Ukrainian refugees have spoken to news outlets, such as WalesOnline, about the difficulties that many of them have now in finding and maintaining housing accommodation. There are millions of displaced people who are still, to this day, moving from one temporary location to another, unsure when they’ll ever return home.
Out of the 8 million people who fled Ukraine, 7,000 found themselves in Wales. Half of the refugees in Wales are sponsored by the Welsh Government's supersponsor scheme, and I’m really grateful for that scheme. They’ve spent the majority of their stays, however, in hotels and similar venues, which quite frankly were never designed for long-term stays. The other half have come via the household Homes for Ukraine sponsorship scheme. Ukrainian refugees who have had to leave their sponsor homes have been told that welcome centres aren’t an option for safe accommodation if they arrived in the UK as part of the supersponsor scheme. So, with local authorities advising them to look at the private rental market, some landlords appear reluctant to take on refugee tenants due to concerns over the stability of future earnings.
Another Ukrainian refugee talked about the experience, saying,
'in the beginning for me everything was tyrannical and could easily break an ordinary person...The system to some extent offends and humiliates the dignity of a refugee and gives an opportunity to a sponsor.'
Some of those sponsors are landlords who, at any time,
'can throw the tenant out on the street or can arrange unbearable conditions and the right to interfere in someone’s personal life. It is a system that can implicitly wake up unacceptable human qualities such as swagger, arrogance and other negative aspects'
that some Ukrainians are now experiencing. So, I do hope that, in the response, you can actually provide us with some reassurances as to how you have been dealing with this.
There is clearly still some lack of joined-up co-ordination regarding the implementation of support and the integration of schemes for Ukrainian refugees. However, the crux of the problem here in Wales is that we simply do not have enough homes. The Welsh Government is achieving less than 50 per cent of the new dwellings target annually, so we need to really look at this. Natural Resources Wales, Welsh Government, health boards and local authorities already own land on which houses could be quickly erected, and I take the point that my colleague Mark Isherwood said earlier about modular housing. The time has come for a home building taskforce to be formed to drive quick projects such as factory-made modular housing on publicly owned land. We have a major housing crisis that is now seeing those refugees stuck in hotels, not homes. It is time for us all to work together to overcome the red tape that is holding back a roof above the head of these most vulnerable individuals. The eyes of the world are watching us and we have to get this right. Thank you.

Heledd Fychan AS: Plaid Cymru stands in complete solidarity with the people of Ukraine for showing remarkable resilience in the face of Russia’s continued brutal attacks. And it disheartens me that, a year on since Putin’s illegal and barbaric invasion—as Sioned Williams said yesterday—of Ukraine that the war continues. Horrific war crimes are being committed and the Russian officials leading the war, including Vladimir Putin, should be on trial for war crimes. Putin’s illegal war and continued aggression against Ukraine, its sovereignty and territorial integrity demonstrate a complete disregard for the UN charter and the self-determination of other nations.
I’d like to emphasise point 3 of the motion in applauding the resilience and strength and bravery of all Ukrainian people in the face of this brutality. And despite this brutality, and whilst Ukraine continues to defend itself against Russia, we must also remember that the country is still playing a key international role. We saw, in response to the devastating earthquake on the Turkey-Syria border, Ukraine not hesitating before sending emergency staff and life-saving machinery to aid in the recovery effort, playing a globally responsible role as a nation.
I urge the UK Government and Welsh Government to continue to provide humanitarian and financial aid to Ukraine. And it’s saddening to hear that, according to the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, as of 30 January, there were 7,155 civilian deaths, 438 of which were children. Furthermore, 11,662 people are reported to have been injured, and they've specified that the real numbers could be much, much higher. To me, this only emphasises the tragedy of war and the need to find peaceful ways of resolving conflicts. We have to do our utmost to avoid further death and destruction, but, ultimately, the peaceful settlement of the war depends on Russia.
We cannot forget that Putin's aim is to destroy the Ukrainian state and to establish a puppet regime, and it's unrealistic to expect negotiations to happen on those terms. Allowing nations to be conquered and subjugated by oppressors is not something we can simply stand by and watch. However, it is crucial that we are clear that any weapons supplied are for Ukrainians to defend themselves, and we must be wary of any risk of escalation into an offensive war. We should be looking at all alternative means to help Ukrainian people at this time. For example, we should further look at continuing and extending sanctions against the Russian economy. These sanctions must also reduce the chance of future campaigns by Russia. The annexation of Crimea in 2014 did result in economic sanctions, but now we know that it wasn't enough to prevent Russia's motivation to invade Ukraine further last year.
And I would call on each of us—. We have mentioned already that Wales is a nation of sanctuary, but as was reflected during Sioned Williams's contribution yesterday and the Minister for Social Justice's response, we cannot allow hostility here in Wales to continue. I have been horrified and hugely saddened to see a Facebook page that has been set up—I was sent a link—which is galvanising nothing short of hatred and a proposed protest in Llantwit Major next month. This is not in line with our values as a nation, and I would urge all of us to consider the language that we use and to consider how that is heard by everyone we represent. This is an open Facebook group and, looking at it, the comments are racist, they're xenophobic, they are full of hatred. That's not the society I want Wales to be, and I am saddened.
I cannot say to those Ukrainian people who've been through so much, and others—. People don't choose to be here. They would like to be safe in their homes, yet they have been forced to live here and they are trying their best. The hatred they then face when they arrive here, rather than being welcomed, is something that should horrify each of us. And given that we saw the attacks in Liverpool last week, to think that the same group is galvanising a protest here in Wales is something that we must consider carefully in this debate. If Wales is to be a true nation of sanctuary, then it is our responsibility to ensure that it is and to stamp out this hatred.

Sam Rowlands MS: I'm grateful to be able to take part in today's extremely important debate on the motion on the invasion of Ukraine and supporting Ukrainian refugees. I'd like to remind Members of my register of interests in relation to trusteeship of charities.
Firstly, I want to echo comments made from across the political Chamber today. They show solidarity with the people of Ukraine, along with all those who are providing support as well. And as already outlined today, the scenes unfolding in Ukraine over the last 12 months and longer have been utterly horrific, heartbreaking, with Putin's bloody and barbaric invasion of Ukraine continuing, more families being torn apart and forced to flee their homes for safety.This invasion has rightly appalled the world and united democratic nations in their condemnation of the brutal actions of President Vladimir Putin against one of our European allies. The horrors that we're witnessing in Ukraine take us back to a dark time, a time we thought was firmly in the past on the European continent, but, sadly, is not the case.
I want to be able to use my time today to draw Members' attention to point 5 of today's motion. I, too, would like to thank the people of Wales for their response, support and friendship provided to the people of Ukraine. Certainly, taking into account Heledd Fychan's points just then, there are, sadly, pockets of people in Wales who don't share that same support and hand of friendship, but many people across Wales are rightly offering a hand of friendship to people fleeing Ukraine.
In my contribution today, I'd like to particularly focus on a group of people and organisations that continue to heavily support Ukrainian refugees. This is our churches and their congregations across Wales, no matter their denomination. Mark Isherwood in opening mentioned a number of faith groups and the work they're carrying out. When we look at churches as a whole, over the past 12 months, through the Welcome Churches network alone, which is an organisation supporting churches to support refugees, over 1,000 churches have welcomed nearly 18,000 refugees across the UK, providing help and support to those who desperately need it.
When we talk about support for refugees from Ukraine, we're talking about supporting the whole person. Alun Davies mentioned this in his contribution a few moments ago—it's about that support for people and that whole person includes their faith, in particular during a time of trauma and hardship. This is extremely important for our friends in Ukraine, because around 85 per cent of people in Ukraine identify as having a Christian faith, with nearly one in five in Ukraine attending a church service every single week. So, it's crucially important that their religious freedom, and expression of this, are able to continue whilst they're here in Wales.
Ahead of this debate, I'm sure that Members from across the Chamber received a briefing from the Catholic Bishops' Conference of England and Wales regarding the support that they've been providing, which is certainly something we should be welcoming. In particular, in working with the Catholic Church, the Caritas Social Action Network have done a fantastic job in supporting the relocation of refugees across the UK, but also specifically here in Wales. On top of this, we see organisations like CAFOD and others providing practical support on the ground in Ukraine, such as providing meals and other aid as well.
I'd like to commend and thank churches and the church more broadly, and other faith groups, for stepping up during this time and ensuring that those who find comfort and solace in faith are being welcomed into church communities with open arms. So many churches are doing this with volunteers quietly and humbly, calling on all of us to welcome the stranger.
In closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, I'd like to, again, thank all those who are doing so much in supporting Ukrainian refugees. It's been sobering to hear contributions from across the Chamber so far this afternoon. Now is the time for all of us to continue being united in doing what we can to support our Ukrainian friends, whilst holding Putin and his allies responsible for their barbaric and indiscriminate attacks on innocent Ukrainian civilians. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Tom Giffard AS: It's hard to believe that it's been a year since we had our last debate here in the Senedd, which was at the start of the war. It's hard to believe that a year has passed since then. I think it's equally hard to comprehend the brutality and the suffering that has happened in Ukraine since that time. It's the greatest humanitarian crisis in Europe since the second world war, with millions displaced, over 7,000 Ukrainian civilians killed, nearly 500 of whom were children. Whole cities, including Mariupol and Bakhmut, countless villages and towns have been driven to the ground by Russian forces. There have been hundreds of thousands of casualties on both the Ukrainian and Russian sides. But we must not forget that Ukraine is a sovereign state, which has forged its own democratic path since its independence from the Soviet Union over 30 years ago. It has a right to self-determination. It's therefore our duty, from one democratically elected Parliament to another, to support those innocent civilians caught up in this barbaric and pointless war. I think all of us here are humbled by the bravery of ordinary citizens in defending their country.
It's also been a week since the historic London declaration was signed by the UK Government and the Ukrainian Government. This reaffirmed the UK's commitment to helping remove Russian forces from Ukrainian territory and to support Ukraine's recovery and long-term future, including work to repair damage to energy supplies and working together to help Ukraine's grain reach world markets again. The declaration formalises a strategic plan to help the Ukrainian Government and its people back on their feet in the long term. I'm very proud of both the UK Government and Welsh Government's actions so far to help Ukrainian people win back their country, from organising international sanctions to training Ukrainian troops to committing £4.6 billion in military support over two years to providing nearly 0.25 million visas for Ukrainians seeking to come to the UK and £1.3 billion in fiscal support. It's clear that we're ready to face down these aggressors together. I'm also proud that so many Welsh people have opened their homes, as we've discussed already, to refugees, but I think there's more we can do here to keep that welcome warm as we approach the one-year anniversary of the conflict.
I'm concerned to learn that half of the Ukrainian refugees who are sponsored by the Welsh Government supersponsor scheme have spent the majority of their time here in hotels or other venues that weren't designed for long-term stays. Ukrainian refugees who've found it difficult to leave their sponsor homes have found it even more difficult to find suitable accommodation, as they claim landlords are reluctant to take them on because of a lack of stability and their earnings. Actually, one Ukrainian refugee got in touch with me earlier today with exactly that problem: they were worried about leaving the hotel they'd been staying in, they were worried about potentially moving from one location to another and the impact that might have on their child's school, because they've just enrolled in a school in Wales, which was really welcome. But, actually, if they get moved to a different location, they may have to uproot and change all over again, which is a real worry for them as well. So, while the initial will has been there, we have to go that bit further to ensure those Ukrainians who have made this journey to Wales are supported throughout the conflict, so in the end they can either choose to stay here, if that's they want to do, or return home once it's safe to do so.
Here, the Welsh Government can support councils to prepare for large groups of people when it comes to freeing up housing and providing education and healthcare so there is as little disruption as possible for families staying here. There's also the possibility of working with private landlords and housing associations to free up suitable accommodation in the long term. We therefore agree there's a need for the Welsh Government to draw up a long-term plan, as we don't know when, unfortunately, the end is in sight for this conflict, and we don't know how long it will take to help rebuild Ukraine in the future.
But to end with a positive note, I've a great example of a community partnership with Ukrainian refugees in Swansea. Some months ago, Ukrainian refugees volunteered to tidy up and begin a project in the courtyard of the burns and plastics unit at Morriston Hospital. The resilience, this community spirit and the desire to give back is something that we should remember and we should support, especially when these refugees left their homeland with very little. Because for every act of evil in this world—and this war has highlighted some of the most evil things imaginable—we mustn't forget that there are exponentially more acts of kindness that showcase the very best of human spirit, and there is no country, I think, that exhibits that more in the world than what we've seen from Ukrainians over the last year. I'm grateful to contribute to this debate. Sláva Ukrayíni.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the opportunity to make a contribution to this debate. Can I also start by reiterating my thanks to the Welsh people and to this Senedd for the overwhelming support for Ukraine and the recognition that this is not just a war for Ukrainians, that it's a war to defend the rule of law, democracy and international law? Can I express my thanks also for the incredible support for Ukrainian families who have had to seek refuge here, for the welcome that they've received throughout Wales, and in particular to the work of the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt, who I think has added real meaning to the reputation of Wales as a nation of sanctuary, not just for Ukrainians but for all refugees and for all people who have had to flee their homeland.
Next week will be an emotional one for me. It will be the anniversary of the Russian invasion of a sovereign independent state one year ago. It was almost one year ago that the leader of Plaid Cymru and I were in Kyiv to show solidarity and support for the Ukrainian people. Since then, we all see now day in and day out the impact of that invasion: some 15 million people internally or externally displaced; tens of thousands of civilians killed, murdered, tortured, raped, bombed; looting, the destruction of civic infrastructure, the like and scale of which we've not seen since the second world war; the 6,000 stolen children who've been dispersed to filtration camps for re-education, the youngest of which is four months old.
The war is also a war of genocide of the Ukrainian nation. I have with me today my father's alien card from when he was a refugee in this country. Until 1960, he had to register with the police. I recall the sergeant who use to visit on a weekly basis. In the card, the nationality is shown as 'uncertain'—'U' it's marked, uncertain—and this was because he would only describe himself as Ukrainian, but, of course, Ukrainian was not recognised legally. So, he went without any identification of his nationality other than his own description. Were Putin to succeed, there are some 44 million people who would also lose their national identity, who would go down as a 'U'—in fact, they wouldn't go down as a 'U', they'd go down as an 'R', as Russian, their language and culture destroyed. That's why I say this is also a war of genocide and of cultural annihilation. Ukraine may be one step, then there are the Baltics, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Georgia and, of course, Poland.
Next week, myself and Alun Davies, on behalf of all the political parties of this Senedd and on behalf of the Welsh people, will be delivering supplies and a vehicle to a Ukrainian battalion and to the Ukrainian miners union, many of whom's members are fighting on the front line and many of whom have already suffered. It is part of Wales's contribution to the solidarity campaign and part of our historic and international responsibility to support oppressed peoples all over the world—in Syria, Afghanistan, Palestine, Uyghur people in China, and sadly many other places. We support Ukraine and democracy in Europe with our material and financial support. Ukrainians support the same democracy with their lives. I'm convinced Ukraine will win. Слава Україні! Героям слава! Glory to Ukraine and glory to our heroes.

Can I add Moldova to that list, Counsel General? We've met with the Moldovan ambassador, and that's clearly another country under threat.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I start—and I'm sure the Welsh Conservatives and indeed the whole Chamber would want me to start—by thanking Mick Antoniw, the Counsel General, for his contribution to this debate today? I thank him for his courage and commitment and for sharing his personal and family experience, as we've stood together with Mick, I think across this whole Chamber, witnessing the response and the way in which he has guided us in our response to the horrific invasion of Ukraine by Putin nearly a year ago.
This motion that you've tabled is important today, and I thank the Welsh Conservatives for tabling it for debate. But I think we all across this Chamber are once again thanking all of those in Wales who are playing such an important role in this humanitarian response, and who played that role over the past year.
I think, Dirprwy Lywydd, point 1 of the motion expresses the fundamental truth that all the pain and suffering of the Ukrainian people over the past 12 months is the result of Putin's illegal invasion. The Siambr has been united and resolute in calling attention to the fact, and I welcome that it's been expressed here again, as we did yesterday on the steps of the Senedd.
Each of us has been shocked by the brutality of what we've seen and heard from Ukraine since the invasion began. None of us will forget the massacre of Bucha, the use of nuclear power plants as a shield, the use of prisoners as combatants, and many other atrocities we've seen. We will continue to encourage our Ukrainian guests to consider engaging with the International Criminal Court war crimes investigation to ensure that those responsible are called to account.
Whilst it's clear to the Welsh public and much of the world at large that Putin has attacked a sovereign nation, the deeper historic injustices and continuous aggression directed towards Ukraine are not as well understood. That's why we commemorated Holodomor in November last year, and we will continue to raise awareness during 2023. We will remember the victims and encourage greater solidarity with Ukrainians who are now finding sanctuary here in Wales.
Despite all the suffering of those in Ukraine and trauma experienced by Ukrainians who we have welcomed into our communities, one thing has characterised their struggle more than any other, and that's bravery. As the First Minister noted when we commemorated Holodomor in November, rather than break their resolve, this war has made giants of Ukrainian people in the eyes of the world.

Jane Hutt AC: The international community has demonstrated remarkable solidarity in military, financial and humanitarian aid provided to Ukraine. The UK and Welsh Governments have worked hard to ensure that support is given to Ukraine to the best of our ability, despite the profound cost-of-living crisis that we are experiencing. We've been proud to provide financial support via the Disasters Emergency Committee to provide equipment where required, to open the supersponsor via route to help Ukrainian citizens get to safety more quickly. And, yes, we will be with you and thinking of you, Mike Antoniw MS our Counsel General, Alun Davies, and you partner [Inaudible.] Thomas, who will be taking this equipment—the journey you're undertaking to deliver vital equipment to Ukraine, with cross-party support.
So, the people of Wales have been unwavering in their support for nearly 7,000 who we have welcomed over the last year, as well as for the Ukrainian community members who already called Wales home, and those living and fighting in Ukraine. We are a compassionate people, providing amazing support, as has been expressed today. And, Dirprwy Lywydd, the Welsh Government set up that supersponsor route because we wanted to reduce the safeguarding risks and reduce barriers for people from Ukraine—mostly women and children, who are fleeing this deadly conflict and searching sanctuary. And you remember, over a year ago, we initially committed to support 1,000 Ukrainians through the supersponsor route, but we've now welcomed over 3,000 Ukrainians to Wales, and a further 1,500 have visas, which we've sponsored. They're yet to arrive, but I will say again today that we will receive them with a warm welcome when they arrive.
And I think it is important to recognise that this about how we then move forward to provide that support in our welcome centres, which has been so important. Those welcome centres have been crucial in terms of the support we've provided for settling into life in Wales: translation services for those who don't speak English; opportunities to start learning English and Welsh; health services available; children enrolling in local schools; advice available to help people find their way in a new country; help with money, benefits and access to work. And also, of course, after that initial period in our welcome centres'initial accommodation, supporting arrivals into longer term accommodation.
And this is why I just want to say again—and, of course, I had the opportunity to update Members yesterday in my statement—securing longer term accommodation is key to the provision of support for those displaced by the crisis in Ukraine. It involves a mixture of accommodation, including individual hosting, the private rented sector and other forms of good-quality transitional accommodation. And that does include modular housing, proposals and plans that have come from local authorities across Wales, including my own local authority, the Vale of Glamorgan council. And I think it is important again to say in this debate that, this is as a result of the transitional accommodation capital programme, and that is an important programme that has also been increased from £65 million to £89 million for this financial year, with support from Plaid Cymru, to ensure that we can provide that immediate good-quality housing at pace—that transitional accommodation. And you will see this being provided across Wales in partnership with our local authorities, housing associations and working in very close conjunction with our social landlords as well.
Our long-term plan to support Ukrainians in Wales will follow the principles set down in our 'Nation of Sanctuary' plan, but I would say that we do need some answers to questions that only the UK Government can answer. And I did say, as I said yesterday, that it is important that we press and that we get your support for asking the UK Minister, Felicity Buchan, to develop a route to settlement for Ukrainians who wish to stay long term, and we knowthat we need to do that in partnership with the Scottish Government as well, following the delivery of our long-term vision.
Deputy Llywydd, I have invited Senedd Members from all parties to the event to mark the invasion of Ukraine by Putin on 27 February, to meet guests, hosts and partners from local government and the third sector across Wales. The UK Government has also just announced a minute's silence at 11 o'clock on 24 February, which we will observe. Deputy Llywydd, we're making a strong stand together this afternoon to honour and support the brave people of Ukraine. Sláva Ukrayíni, heróiam sláva.

I call on Andrew R.T. Davies to reply to the debate.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I thank everyone who's contributed to today's debate, and especially Mick, obviously, who has such strong personal connections to Ukraine? I would just like to say that we never want to see that 'U' again. You have a country called Ukraine. You should never have to have a document that would say 'unidentified' or 'no fixed abode'. You do have a country that has international recognised borders, and that's why the United Kingdom has stood shoulder to shoulder with the Ukrainian people, and that's why the President of Ukraine came here last week, along with the rest of Europe that he visited, to show that strength of support and appreciation for the Ukrainian people in their hour of need. As we come towards the year's anniversary, which is a week on Friday, many of us thought that we would never see it run this long and that, ultimately, some sort of common-sense approach would appease Putin and he would withdraw back to those international borders, and ultimately, Ukraine could carry on being a nation state—a proud nation state.
But the comments that Alun Davies made about saying 'brutality', 'generosity', and also, I would add, 'solidarity', are typical of what this debate should be about. Mark Isherwood highlighted in his opening remarks the comments around the brutality, about the deaths, about the destruction of property. We've heard about children being taken out of the country of Ukraine into camps—camps. This is Europe we're talking about. For many people in the modern era when we're talking about Ukraine, they have images of European football championships being played there and going there on holidays. And also, from an agricultural point of view, I have much understanding of the great agricultural potential that Ukraine has, as Tom Giffard touched on about the food supply that is provided. Sam Rowlands touched on the community support that obviously has been offered the length and breadth of this country, and also the rest of the UK and the rest of the world as well, which is greatly appreciated when you think of the mass movement of people—7 million, 8 million, 10 million people and more are in transit and being displaced because of this conflict. Let's not forget, we haven't seen anything like that since the second world war. Some of us with a long enough memory would remember the brutality of the Balkans crisis and what went on there, and that was a terrible and damning indictment of diplomacy's failure, but this is of a different magnitude altogether.
And it has been said in this Chamber that not all Russians are guilty here. They're a state captured by Putin and Putin's cronies around him. This isn't about being against the Russian people. This is about the regime that Putin leads and the dictatorship that he operates within the borders of Russia. And Heledd Fychan touching on, sadly, that example in Llantwit Major of the Facebook page. We must always root out that level of hate and that level of poison that does exist in a very small amount of people's minds, but overcome that with the generosity of spirit that we have shown as politicians, but also as a country as a whole we have done that. But also, the Minister's response. I pay tribute to what the Minister has done in her role in social justice, but also highlighting—the point that Janet Finch-Saunders raised—about the need for housing, which I know the Minister is conscious of, but it is, because sadly this war is ongoing and people's displacement is longer than any of us would like to see, going to be with us for many years to come, if not decades to come. And when people are thinking about schooling and putting their roots down in communities, they do need that ability to call a place home, because that is going to be critical about bringing balance back into people's lives.
So, my points today are around the brutality—we've heard about that in this debate; the generosity—we've heard that in this debate today, the generosity of the Welsh and the British people; and above all, the solidarity of how we all stand with the Ukrainian people as we come up to that 12-month anniversary. We all want this war to come to an end, but by standing shoulder to shoulder with the Ukrainian people and saying that it is our firm commitment that we want to see the international borders of the Ukraine respected, we will overcome, we will triumph, and ultimately, the Ukrainian people will have that place called home: the Ukrainian nation state. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? I don't hear any objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Habilitation training for sight-impaired children

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Item 7 this afternoon is the second Welsh Conservatives' debate on habilitation training for sight-impaired children. I call on Altaf Hussain to move the motion.

Motion NDM8205 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes research from Guide Dogs Cymru suggesting that 2,000 sight-impaired children would benefit from habilitation training.
2. Further notes that habilitation training is vital for developing personal mobility, navigation and independent living skills for sight-impaired children.
3. Is disappointed that a number of Welsh local authorities do not offer habilitation training, despite their duty to have due regard to Article 26 of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) urgently provide a workforce plan on habilitation services; and
b) ensure local authorities employ at least one habilitation specialist per 100 children who are visually impaired.

Motion moved.

Altaf Hussain AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. It is a pleasure to be moving this important debate this afternoon. Making childhood equal is sadly not something we have excelled at. Article 26 of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities states that,
'States Parties shall take effective and appropriate measures, including through peer support, to enable persons with disabilities to attain and maintain maximum independence, full physical, mental, social and vocational ability, and full inclusion and participation in all aspects of life. To that end, States Parties shall organize, strengthen and extend comprehensive habilitation and rehabilitation services and programmes, particularly in the areas of health, employment, education and social services, in such a way that these services and programmes:
'a) Begin at the earliest possible stage, and are based on the multidisciplinary assessment of individual needs and strengths;
'b) Support participation and inclusion in the community and all aspects of society, are voluntary, and are available to persons with disabilities as close as possible to their own communities, including in rural areas.
'2. States Parties shall promote the development of initial and continuing training for professionals and staff working in habilitation and rehabilitation services.
'3. States Parties shall promote the availability, knowledge and use of assistive devices and technologies, designed for persons with disabilities, as they relate to habilitation and rehabilitation'.
Despite this obvious duty to provide habilitation support, some local authorities in Wales offer none at all. According to Guide Dogs Cymru, large parts of Wales have very poor provision of habilitation training. They believe that there are approximately 2,000 sight-impaired children and young people who would benefit from such training.
But, what are we talking about here? What is habilitation training? Essentially, it is a way of teaching children and young people with sight loss the skills that we all develop early on. A child or a young person who can see typically develops a range of independence skills as they grow up with their family. These skills include being able to move around without hurting themselves and being able to get where they want to be safely. Independence skills include the practical and social skills of washing, dressing, eating, drinking, shopping, cooking and finding friends. Sighted children and young people learn these skills within their families, largely by watching other family members. Children and young people with vision impairment cannot watch and learn in the same way as a sighted child. As a result, many key foundation skills may be missed without additional help and support. Habilitation training provides alternative ways of learning, using the child or young person’s other senses of touch, hearing, taste, smell and balance. This approach develops a child’s early movement skills and is useful for children with a range of vision or none. Habilitation in the early years also helps to develop children’s awareness of their own bodies, as well as the child’s awareness of the space around them when still or movingand the use of their senses. Habilitation specialists work closely with parents, school staff and other professionals, as well as one to one with the child. They are qualified to teach practical strategies and skills to maximise independence, and work in both mainstream and specialised settings, as well as in the home and out in the community. Habilitation training maximises the personal independence of a child or young person with visual needs, as well as helps to prepare them for moving on as an independent young adult to college, university, apprenticeships or work.
Last October I had the pleasure to meet Amy, a young woman who had benefited from habilitation support from Guide Dogs Cymru. Amy told me how the support she received gave her the confidence to go to university, and was even planning a trip to America, a lifelong dream that would not have been possible without habilitation support. Habilitation enables these young people to do the things that we all take for granted, things we all do without a second thought, things that everyone should be able to do, whether that is going out to play with friends or going travelling in your late teens.
Without habilitation support for Welsh children and young people, how can we possibly hope to create an equal Wales? If we don’t have equality of opportunity, then we don’t have equality. Sadly for visually impaired children and young people in Wales, where you live has a huge impact on your opportunities. There is a postcode lottery for habilitation services. Provision is very stretched across north Wales, where one specialist covers a very large area. In Ceredigion, Conwy, Merthyr Tydfil and Pembrokeshire, there is no service at all. There are just 11.4 full-time equivalent habilitation specialists covering the whole of Wales, well short of what is needed to provide at least one specialist per 100 visually impaired children. As our motion calls for, we need to urgently implement a workforce plan, a strategic commitment to a long-term solution. Whilst we dither and delay, blind and partially sighted children are missing out on vital specialist support to enable them to achieve their full potential. Ministers can find a few million pounds down the back of the Welsh Treasury sofa in order to bail out a failing airport, yet they do nothing to support thousands of visually impaired young people in Wales.
I'm also disappointed that the Welsh Government have amended our motion to pass the buck onto local government. For years, Welsh Ministers have been told that specialist habilitation provision has been lacking, and yet no action has been taken, no plans put in place. We can’t leave national planning to local authorities. Welsh Ministers are ultimately responsible for ensuring councils comply with their duties, as well as ensuring Wales has the workforce needed to provide habilitation support to our young people. I urge colleagues to stand up for visually impaired young people by supporting our motion today and rejecting the Government’s amendment.
With the right workforce plan in place and sufficient habilitation specialists employed to meet the needs of visually impaired children and young people, we can make childhood equal. By removing barriers—that we, non-impaired, ironically, don’t see—we can ensure every visually impaired child in Wales has equality of opportunity and is allowed to thrive. Diolch yn fawr.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the Minister for health to move formally amendment 1.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete points 3 and 4 and replace with:
3. Calls on all Welsh local authorities to offer habilitation training, in line with their duty to have due regard to Article 26 of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to engage with relevant stakeholders to help develop an improvement plan for habilitation services for children who are visually impaired, to include consideration of their training needs and how to meet these.

Amendment 1moved.

Eluned Morgan AC: Formally.

It is formally moved. Therefore, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Llywydd. Plaid Cymru welcomes this debate today, and we will be supporting the Conservatives' motion, and that's because it's clear that many of our young people and children in Wales with vision impairments are being failed in the sense that they are not being supported to live as autonomously, independently and freely as they are entitled to, as noted in article 26 of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. We in Wales have prided ourselves on leading the way when it comes to children's rights. The Welsh Government has had to have had due regard to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and article 23 says that
'a child with a disability has the right to live a full and decent life with dignity and, as far as possible, independence and to play an active part in the community.'
The Welsh Government has committed also to progressive steps to ensure the rights of disabled people. The stated aim of their disability rights taskforce is to remove inequalities experienced by disabled people, and among the priority areas of that programme of work are children and young people.
You would think, therefore, that the findings in an article in the British Journal of Visual Impairment authored by Guide Dogs UK, the University of Liverpool and Bangor University that the key to empowering and supporting children and young people with vision impairment to achieve their potential lies in the delivery of habilitation training would be wholly aligned with the Government's vision. It is, therefore, disappointing to hear from Guide Dogs Cymru that there are potentially 2,000 children and young people with vision impairment who would benefit from the better provision of habilitation training that is not currently being provided. The research that informs this article found that 37 per cent of parents they surveyed reported that their child hadn't received mobility training at all during the previous year. Similarly, in 2019, the Royal National Institute of Blind People suggested as much as a third of children with visual impairments are suffering as a result of a lack of money in council budgets to pay for the extra support they need. This was before even accounting for the current inflationary and budgetary crises facing our local authorities at the moment.
So, it's evident, we believe, that Welsh Government have to do more work alongside our local authorities to ensure this essential service is provided to these children and young people who need it in order to achieve the independent living skills noted in the motion, which I'm sure every Member would support as crucially important, and as outlined by Altaf Hussain.
I'd also like to briefly highlight some other points made by the RNIB in relation to this matter that perhaps the Conservatives could perhaps push their Westminster counterparts to take action on if they truly have the best interests of blind and partially sighted people at heart. Because, even before this cost-of-living crisis, one in five blind and partially sighted people said they had some or great difficulty in making ends meet, a situation that has only now worsened in the light of the current economic pressures. People with sight loss are twice as likely to live in a household that has a total income of £1,500 a month or less, and, from this spring, they will be spending upwards of 16 per cent of their total income on energy. Many are reducing the use of lighting and assistive technologies, which are crucial, of course, both to their safety and which support everyday independent living. Some blind and partially sighted people will this year no longer be eligible for the Warm Home discount either.
In their recent cost-of-living survey, the RNIB found that more than a third of respondents said they often skipped meals. One said, 'I am missing a meal today. I have a small bowl of cereal, then miss lunch and have something cheap in the evening like beans on toast. This is the only way I'm surviving. I'm also taking less showers now, which makes me feel dirty and uncomfortable.' People with sight loss are more reliant on benefits as only one in four registered blind and partially sighted people of working age are in employment. So, while supporting your motion today, Plaid Cymru asks the Conservatives, while calling on the Welsh Government to do all it can to support children and young people with sight impairment and ensure they're funding and supporting local authorities in Wales to provide that support needed for habilitation and other services, to also call on their Government in Westminster to properly support disabled people through the benefits system. Because, Llywydd, no-one in twenty-first century Wales, least of all those with disabilities, should have to skip a meal or feel unable to afford to keep clean. Diolch.

Joel James MS: I wanted to start by saying that, although I recognise providing for the complexity of disabilities that exist in Wales is challenging, I'm nonetheless still surprised, given all the information that we know about the positive impact of helping those with disabilities to gain independence and to live prosperous and fulfilling lives, and how it can bring positive contributions to a wider society, that people are still finding themselves having to fight for the support that they are fully entitled to, and have to work so hard to get those in power to take their needs seriously.
Indeed, I am astonished that, in Wales, we have a postcode lottery to habilitation services. It is simply not right that some local authorities do not provide this support, and it’s wholly unfair to those and their families who've been left to source these services on their own at one of the most difficult, stressful and uncertain times in their lives. It is also wrong, for those who are lucky enough to have a local authority support them, that they find themselves having to jump through so many hoops before they receive those services.
Whilst there is an agreement when access to habilitation is required, the experience of those who need the service is still very poor. They find that there is little to patchy understanding of what habilitation entails, why it is needed, and the length of time the support is required for. The process of receiving habilitation training is, and continues to be, a source of great worry.
We know that habilitation is best begun as early as possible when sight loss is diagnosed, and is particularly important for children in early years, because it helps not only to develop a child’s awareness of their own body and condition, but an awareness of the space around them, whilst still developing the use of their other senses. So, in many ways, it is time critical for these services to be available, and for people to receive them as quickly as possible. Having to spend several months or even years waiting to receive habilitation not only makes it more difficult for individuals, but is counterproductive, because it often means that these services are required for much longer.
Astonishingly, research shows that the older a person is, the less likely they are to receive habilitation support. So, it is not acceptable that, in a number of local authority areas, young people with vision impairment are not receiving mobility and independence training at a key time in their education. The difference that habilitation support can make is profound. It can unlock so much potential from children and young people with vision impairment. It will enable them to fully engage with their education and help them prepare for the world around them, such as moving to college or university, applying for apprenticeships or work, and to live as an independent young adult.
Furthermore, we know that there's a high social return on investment, and that, for every £1 spent on habilitation services, £7.13 is created in social value. While some of the value relates to parents, the majority of the value is based on the children and young people themselves. Indeed, a habilitation service creates £5.72 for every £1 spent, solely from service user outcomes alone.
Finally, I want to finish by highlighting the benefits of habilitation felt by people. The improvement in confidence and the ability to carry out tasks for themselves is life changing, and this in turn improves emotional well-being and mental and physical health, which they desperately need. With this in mind, I would urge everyone here to fully support this motion. The Welsh Government needs to act urgently to ensure that people are getting the services they require. They need to help remove the stress and worry for those affected by reducing red tape and the hurdles that people go through. And they also need to finally provide much-needed leadership on this, to get local authorities to provide the services they're duty bound to provide. Thank you.

Gareth Davies AS: I'm pleased to take part in this debate this afternoon. Coming from a rehabilitation background in physiotherapy in the NHS, it's pleasing to see the work being done to improve children's mobility, navigation and independent living skills, in order to better the lives of people who are visually impaired or blind. I think that should be celebrated.
I'm also pleased to see the support for the idea of this motion from Guide Dogs Cymru, as I think that the role that guide dogs play in supporting the blind and visually impaired is remarkable and also needs celebrating. It's quite incredible, really, what versatility dogs show in their training to become guide dogs, and how adaptable they become to their environment, which is a celebration in itself, as it supports many people who are most in need of them. Most of the dogs that are used for guide dogs are Labradors and retrievers, and they can be the most loving, caring—greedy, but loyal—dog breeds you will find, and serve the blind and visually impaired so well in their duties.
I and the Welsh Conservatives firmly believe that everyone in Wales deserves to live their life with as much independence as possible, including those with disabilities such as blindness and visual impairment. Guide dogs are often the greatest way, as I’ve mentioned, for visually impaired people to go out and live their daily lives. Habilitation training allows young people to be young people by being able to find new friends and do normal things with them, such as go out eating, shopping and playing, just to name a few examples. Equally, it also allows young people to continue their independence into further education and employment.
It’s important to note also that the Welsh Conservatives respect and admire the parents of these young people, who are the first habilitation trainers and do fantastic jobs. However, there is a need for professional practitioners to provide qualified training that supports both the young people and indeed the parents as well, and the cost of up to £600,000 for providing at least 20 habilitation specialists is a price worth paying, in my opinion, to ensure that this Parliament believes in giving young people in Wales independence and the easiest life possible. I’d urge Members to support our motion unamended this afternoon. Thank you.

Natasha Asghar AS: I’ve been very fortunate since having been elected that I was able to work quite closely with Andrea Gordon. Now, she’s from Guide Dogs Cymru and, through her, I was able to meet numerous individuals who actually have visual impairments, and it really made me understand a lot more about their needs and what they have to have in life. Some of the things that we often don’t even think about can be huge barriers for people and children with visual impairments, and it’s vital that we as Members from every party do all we can to make all aspects of our society accessible for those with visual impairments, and also those with disabilities as well.
For me, habilitation training is indeed the key to helping set children and young people up for the rest of their lives. Not only does it go a long way in helping them live independently, but it also helps prepare them, as my colleagues have mentioned, for college, work, apprenticeships, ultimately university, and later life as well. Habilitation training would teach those with visual needs the vital skills that other children would perhaps have traditionally learned through sight. RNIB Cymru estimates that there are 265 children with sight loss in the Aneurin Bevan health board, all of whom would greatly benefit from habilitation training.
Now, as I mentioned, habilitation training, which is a vital part of children’s educational development, equips young people with listening skills, social skills, toilet training, dressing skills, money recognition, and even shopping skills. It can also teach people how to travel independently, use public transport, assess risk, and also prepare their own meals. I’m sure that everyone here will ultimately agree that these are essential skills and every single person and child should have and needs these sorts of skills in today’s day and age.
You cannot put a price on a person’s freedom and independence. As my colleagues Gareth Davies and Altaf Hussain have mentioned, simply employing at least 20 specialists to offer training to the estimated 2,000 visually impaired children in Wales would roughly cost £600,000 at most. When you compare that to some of the mammoth sums that the Government has spent on some frivolous projects—and I won't repeat what my colleagues have said—such as Gilestone farm, and Cardiff Airport, it really is a drop in the ocean.
It is paramount that this Government comes forward with a workforce plan and engages with councils all across Wales to make sure that they have at least one specialist per 100 children who are indeed visually impaired. We need to ensure equality and fairness, because there is nothing more heartbreaking for me to hear than a child being denied essential services just because of a postcode lottery system. Without a doubt, there are some incredible charities out there, supporting visually impaired children and young people going forward, but now it’s time for the Government to step in and take action. We can all make a real difference to the lives of thousands of visually impaired children in all four corners of Wales, so I really hope that you all support our motion here today. Thank you so much.

The health Minister now to contribute to the debate, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. I would like to thank the Conservative Party for bringing forward this important debate about habilitation support for visually impaired children in Wales. I must say, I agree with the sentiment in the motion that there is more that should be done for this group of children. I note the Guide Dogs Cymru research that states that 2,000 sight-impaired children could benefit from access to habilitation training here in Wales, and many of you have noted that in your contributions. That is an important point. However, it is important also to understand the need for both habilitation and rehabilitation services in the round.
Providing for the social care and related needs of their local populations is an important local responsibility. Under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, local authorities and health boards must work together via regional partnership boards to assess, plan for and meet the care and support needs of their population, including in relation to sensory impairments.

Eluned Morgan AC: Through the implementation of the Act, we have set out clear and unambiguous rights and responsibilities in relation to social care and related matters. That includes local authorities having regard to the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities when they discharge their functions. The expectations set out in the statutory framework under the Act also include duties on local authorities to establish and maintain a register of sight-impaired people, and provide them with habilitation services. These duties apply to all people—children as well as adults.
To help understand the position in relation to adults, the Welsh Government funded the Wales Council of the Blind to scope and consider the services and support needed within this sector, and they engaged with stakeholders across Wales to consider service improvements. The final report highlighted the need for local and national initiatives aimed at providing training for new rehabilitation officers in Wales, as well as supporting existing officers through professional development training packages.
Following this, in May 2022, the Deputy Minister for Social Services met with Wales Vision Forum to discuss some of the issues around the provision of rehabilitation and habilitation support across Wales. Since this meeting, officials within Welsh Government have continued to engage with Guide Dogs Cymru representatives to try and understand more about some of the challenges that exist with regard to access to this type of support for children and their families here in Wales, thus tying in this work to the work already done in relation to adult services.
From this work, we acknowledge that, in some cases, access to habilitation training can be essential in enabling a child to develop personal mobility, navigation and independent living skills. Not only do habilitation officers work with the child, but they also work with the extended family to support them and teach them skills to enable them to effectively support the child to learn key life skills, through listening and touching.
We know that the provision of habilitation specialists is variable across Wales, with some local authority areas having better access to this service than others. We also understand that, like many others in Wales, these services have been significantly impacted by the pandemic. Indeed, I understand that Guide Dogs Cymru have been providing some support for areas with little to no access, and I'm really grateful for the support that they've been able to offer to date.
Therefore, taking account of the recommendations in the report, and further official-level discussions, a letter sent by the Deputy Minister to the Wales Vision Forum last November indicated that the Welsh Government would be keen to facilitate further engagement with representatives of the forum to identify ways to take forward improvements in habilitation. We believe it's important, reflecting the spirit of this debate, for that work to include consideration being given to children and young people's training needs, and how best to meet these. But I don't believe that it's wise to separate out workforce planning from the assessment of need, or to take away the role of developing these plans from those who have the responsibility and practical experience on the ground of social service delivery, and this is reflected in my amendments to the motion proposed.
In closing, I have spoken principally about the role of social care, habilitation and rehabilitation, but health services also have an important role to play. Health professionals refer people with sensory loss to social care at the earliest opportunity to enable them to access services and support when they need it. But it's also vital that they play a role in treatment and care for such loss.
NHS Wales eye and ear healthcare services are delivered differently from the rest of the UK. We have a much stronger emphasis on more treatment and care being available within the community, and our primary care services are underpinned by prudent healthcare principles. This puts a new emphasis on what would work best for patients and makes the most effective use of all available resources across primary and secondary care. Wales continues to be a leader in optometry and audiology provision of services, and the other UK devolved nations follow our lead. Scotland and Northern Ireland are already replicating the work that we've pioneered, and England are now seeking Welsh Government advice. They're particularly keen to learn about developments in primary cluster areas.
I began by acknowledging that we are very aware of the challenges in this area, and I'll end by making it clear that we will continue to work with local authorities and other partners, with the aim of promoting comprehensive habilitation services to support children in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

James Evans to reply to the debate.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Llywydd, and it's been a really important debate today, and I think it's really important that we've heard contributions from right across the Chamber, from Members in Plaid Cymru and from Members in my own group, of how we can raise this really, really important topic here. And it's vitally important for some of the most vulnerable people in our society.
We opened the debate with Altaf Hussain, who talked about article 26 and reminded us of our obligations to the most vulnerable people in our society. Sometimes, we forget what we owe to the most vulnerable people in society, and it's important that we all recognise the duties that we have. And that's why it's very important, as Altaf said, that we offer that habilitation training across Wales, as we need to make sure that everybody has opportunities to develop and ensure that they have the opportunities to live an independent life. And that was raised by a lot of people here, and it's not just for this, but for disabled people right across Wales, that we do as much as we can to improve their lives. As Altaf Hussain said, there are many parts of Wales where this training isn't even provided, and that's a failing that we have here for those vulnerable children across Wales. And Altaf also talked about the workforce plans and not having those in place, and I think it's very important that we have those, so we can identify the service needs and where we need to put people in place to make sure we can roll out this training right across Wales.
Sioned Williams, I was very grateful that Plaid Cymru will be supporting our motion this evening, and it's very good that we can work in this cross-party way across the Senedd, so we can raise these important issues and actually highlight them and work together for the interests of children right across Wales. I think you mentioned the third of children who are suffering due to local authority budgets, and I think it's really right to highlight that, because we do not want to see children in Wales, who have visual impairments, suffering; it's just simply not right in a twenty-first century society. And you also mentioned the UK Conservative Government and things that they could do, and I'll just put on record that we on these benches did ask for the UK Government to raise benefits in line with inflation. That's something that we did on our benches, and we will hold our own Government to account where we think they are failing. That is why we are the Welsh Conservative Party, not the Conservative Party in England, and we'll do as much as we can to hold our Government to account where we think they're not doing things correctly.
Joel James talked very passionately about giving people the power to listen to their needs, and I think that's very, very important that we do listen to service users when we do design these systems as well, to make sure that they're included in what we do. Because if we don't include young people in what we want to do, then I don't think we'll ever have a system that works for them. That's something we do too often is design a system without listening to the people who use it, and then I don't think it's ever fit for purpose. Joel, you also talked about the economic elements of why habilitation training is very, very important. For every £1 spent, that £5.72 back to the economy in how they actually contribute to society, I think we don't think about that enough when we look at health outcomes right across Wales. This is a very important issue here, but right across Wales. If we just invested a bit more money upfront in services like this to help disabled people, we could actually really improve the economic outcomes across Wales and really enable those people to live the full lives that they should by right be entitled to live.
Gareth Davies, you talked about Labradors. It's not a dog breed that I particularly like; I'm a big fan of spaniels, but I recognise the important work that those dogs do, actually, to really help those people with visual impairments. And I just want to put on the record the thanks to the people who actually rear guide dog puppies and bring them through the system and take them into training. I think those people do get forgotten aboutsometimes. I think it's important to recognise all those people who do that, which actually helps the service as a whole. I know my colleague Mark Isherwood hosted an event in the Senedd not so long ago about this. I think it was important to get, yet again, that cross-party consensus over this.

Tom Giffard AS: Will you take an intervention?

James Evans MS: Yes, I will take an intervention quite happily.

Tom Giffard AS: You mentioned the role of guide dogs there, and my mind actually took me back to the event that you mentioned that Mark Isherwood hosted in the Senedd a few weeks ago. It struck me that you can't really put a price on independence. Independence is one of those words that we bandy around sometimes in these debates and we forget what that really means, that independence to be able to follow our dreams, our pursuits and the things that we want to do. So, the work that goes on in terms of training those guide dogs is really important, I'm sure you'll agree.

James Evans MS: That's very true. Actually, one person at that event that my colleague Sam Kurtz talked to—I'm sure other Members did—had a visual impairment. I took the time to talk to that person myself, and they actually said that they'd had habilitation training, and they found it very useful, but the dog that was with them was also that lifeline to them. So, you're totally right.
Natasha Asghar picked up this point as well, that you cannot put a price on somebody's independence. Most of us probably in this Chamber take for granted our independence, and I think sometimes we don't recognise that there are some people who really are suffering at home who live very isolated lives because they do not have access to the services that they need to help them to live that independent life. I do not think, as Natasha Asghar said, that we can put a price on the independence of that person, because I think a lot of people take it for granted. It's very important that issues like that are raised in this Chamber so we all understand and recognise those people.
Then we moved on to the Minister. I agreed with some of the things that the Minister said. You'll be very surprised, Minister, to hear that, I'm sure. But I'm disappointed that the Government has amended this motion. I don't think our motion was overly political. We actually put the motion down—and Guide Dogs Cymru helped us informally with this motion—because this is what organisations are telling us that they want to see. I think it's very, very important that, when organisations come forward, we are the democratically elected Parliament here and we represent those organisations in this Chamber to get those issues raised. When the Government amended it and basically passed the buck on to local authorities, who I think have failed sometimes in their duties here—as Altaf said before, there are vast swathes of Wales where there is no service at all—I think it's incumbent on the Government to step up here to make sure that we have that service right across Wales and the workforce in place right across Wales so that people who are visually impaired and those young children who need that habilitation training are not left at home and they're not forgotten, because it is very important to their future development, their education and their future life that they have the opportunity to live that full life, as we all live in this Chamber.
I hope we can all agree that it simply is not good enough that 2,000 children in Wales who are visually impaired are in need of support. The support they're getting is dire, and I think it's about time that we did our jobs in this Senedd and make sure that we represent the views of those disabled people across Wales, and especially those vulnerable children who are in desperate need of this vital support. Diolch, Llywydd.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move to voting time. There are more than three Members who wish for the bell to be rung, so we will adjourn and ring the bell.

The bell was rung to call Members to the Chamber.

8. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time. We have votes on items 5 and 7. Item 5 is first, a vote on a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) on the education maintenance allowance. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in name of Luke Fletcher. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, no abstentions, 13 against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Item 5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) - Education Maintenance Allowance: For: 37, Against: 13, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on item 7, the Welsh Conservatives debate on habilitation training for sight-impaired children, and I call for a vote on the motion without amendment tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 25 against, and therefore, in accordance with Standing Order, I exercise my casting vote in the negative. Therefore, the motion is not agreed, with 25 votes in favour and 26 against.

Item 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Habilitation training for sight-impaired children. Motion without amendment: For: 25, Against: 25, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The next vote will be on amendment 1 tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. That vote is also tied, and therefore, in accordance with Standing Orders, I exercise my vote against amendment 1, which means that amendment 1 is not agreed. the motion is not amended and is not agreed, so there is no further voting on that item.

Item 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Habilitation training for sight-impaired children. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 25, Against: 25, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

That concludes voting time for today.

9. Short Debate: The structure of public services in Wales: Have we got it right?

We will, therefore, move on to the short debate.

We have two short debates this afternoon. This first will be by Mike Hedges, and the second will be by Siân Gwenllian. If Members who are leaving can leave quietly.

If everyone could leave quietly, I will call Mike Hedges to present his short debate.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. It's always interesting when you've got the short debate on the Wednesday before half term or the end of term. Alun Davies has been given a minute in this debate.
The structure of public services in Wales: have we got it right? The answer is 'yes' in some cases and 'no' in others. Where we have got it wrong, is it bad enough to need a restructuring? The Welsh public service consists of hundreds of organisations. There are small and localised ones, whilst others are large and some cover all of Wales. The view held by many, if not most, Senedd Members, and at least in part by the Welsh Government, is that larger organisations are better, and no failings of the large organisations in Wales have convinced them otherwise. In fact, whilst the failings of Betsi Cadwaladr health board are well documented, I have been told by a former Plaid Cymru health spokesperson that we should have one health board for Wales. A Conservative Member has told me there should be two, with one for the north and one for the south. The arguments are superficially attractive. You reduce the number of chief executives, the executive team and board members, releasing savings.
Over many years there have been service reorganisations that have created larger and larger organisations throughout Wales. We've gone from lots to, in some cases, one, in some cases seven. But a lot have gone just down to one. The Welsh ambulance service was established in 1998 by the amalgamation of four existing ambulance trusts and the ambulance service provided by Pembrokeshire and Derwen NHS Trust. Public Health Wales was created at the same time as the local health boards by the merger of the national public health service, Wales Centre for Health, Welsh Cancer Intelligence and Surveillance Unit, Congenital Anomaly Register and Information Service for Wales, and Screening Services Wales. Digital Health and Care Wales provides systems and services that are used in patients' homes, in GP practices, in hospitals, and in the community. Seven local health boards that now plan, secure and deliver health services in their areas replaced the 22 health boards and NHS trusts that performed these functions previously. The population sizes vary—Powys at just over 130,000 to Betsi Cadwaladr at just under 700,000—but in many respects, the population matters less than geographical distance.
The National Procurement Service was created by the Welsh Government in March 2013. Its remit is to secure in the region of £1 billion worth of goods and services in common and repetitive spend. Natural Resources Wales was formedby the merger of the Countryside Council for Wales, Environment Agency Wales and the Forestry Commission in Wales. Since its creation, there have been a number of loans from invest-to-save to fund redundancies, and a highly critical auditor general report regarding the sale of trees. Two trunk road agencies have replaced the former eight county council-run agencies. The Welsh Government reviewed the way in which trunk roads and motorways were being managed, and decided to reduce the number from eight down to three and then down to two. Three national parks: following the Environment Act 1995, each national park has been managed by its own national park authority since 1997. But, there have been those people who have been putting forth an argument that we really only want one national park body in Wales. This idea is that one is better than any other number, despite everything you see. Fairly recently we had the call to merge them. We've got three fire and rescue services, which were formed as a consequence of local government reorganisation, replacing the eight former county council fire and rescue services. Then we have four regional education consortiums. Twenty-two county or county borough councils were created in 1995 by the merger of county and district councils. For several years, there have been calls from some politicians for local government mergers, including one who is in the room today. Over 700 town and community councils. The careers service has been taken out of local control and is now run centrally.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Mike Hedges AC: Are mergers always right? From the above, it can be seen that the direction of travel is to larger and fewer organisations. Those who look at it simply are calculating the savings. Mergers, however, are expensive; you've got redundancy costs, re-badging costs, and, more expensive of all, creating a single ICT system from the systems of the predecessor organisations. Anybody who went through local government reorganisation in 1995 will be able to tell you about the huge costs that took place, and most of the changes were by splitting rather than merging. It really is incredibly expensive.
ICT systems—I could talk for hours on this. Some will be under contract; others will need to be updated or closed down and merged into new systems. Look at NRW, where invest-to-save has been used to rescue the organisation's ICT services on several occasions. All these are upfront costs, and whilst the cost of local government reorganisation in 1996 was approximately 5 per cent of the annual expenditure of each council, that was without the variation in terms and conditions between local authorities that exists today. It would be incredibly difficult to merge local authorities today because we've got the situation, haven't we, that we went through job evaluation. So, if you're a social worker in Neath Port Talbot or a social worker in Swansea, you don't get paid the same, though many of us would like it to be. They went through their own different job evaluations. Actually, it's better to be a social worker in Swansea and to work in a library in Neath Port Talbot, in terms of what job evaluation gave them.
The simplistic conclusions of some is that, following a merger, all the senior post duplication is removed and then you have all the great savings. This ignores issues such as that senior managers carry out tasks and, if the number is reduced, the tasks have to be reassigned and the same number of decisions have to be made. Economic theory predicts that an organisation becomes less efficient if it becomes too large. Larger organisations often suffer poor communication because they find it difficult to maintain an effective flow of information between departments, divisions, or between head office and outlying parts. I was hoping somebody from Betsi Cadwaladr area would have come in to explain exactly how they know that's true. Co-ordination problems also affect large organisations with many departments and divisions, as they find it much harder to co-ordinate operations. 'X-inefficiency' is the loss of management efficiency that occurs when organisations become large and operate in uncompetitive markets. Such losses of efficiency include overpaying for resources, paying managers salaries higher than needed—I think that people have come across that on several occasions as well—and excessive waste of resources.
This leads to three questions on public services as they are currently configured. Do the larger organisations such as Betsi Cadwaladr perform better than the smaller ones? Has the creation of all-Wales organisations such as the Welsh ambulance service and Digital Health and Care Wales produced an improved service? Has the reduction in the number of organisations carrying out a function such as the trunk road agency, Natural Resources Wales and the National Procurement Service improved the services being provided? What I will say is that we need the same regional footprint for all public services provided by the Welsh Government.
To give an example of current inconsistencies, those of us who live in Swansea have a different regional footprint for almost every service. For health, it's Swansea Neath Port Talbot; for fire and rescue, we add Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion, Powys and Pembrokeshire; educational improvement, it's the same; but policing, which is currently non-devolved, includes all the former county of Glamorgan except for Caerphilly; and finally, the Welsh ambulance service covers the whole of Wales. The aim should be to have all services within the four footprints: the Cardiff city region, the Swansea bay city region, the mid Wales region and the north Wales region. This splitting ofWales into four regions was long overdue, and it really has given us an opportunity to get things right. Whilst services could, and in many cases will, be on a smaller footprint than the regions, no service should cut across the regional boundaries unless it is an all-Wales service, which should be very rare. This will allow regional working across services to be undertaken far more easily.
There is nothing intrinsically good about the current structure of local government in Wales. Why were the councils of Rhondda, Cynon Valley and Taff Ely merged but Blaenau Gwent and Merthyr district councils turned into unitary authorities without any mergers? Change should only be considered where there is a strong chance of improving services and/or reducing cost over the medium term because of the initial cost of change. Having spent several years discussing local government reorganisation as if it were some sort of silver bullet to solve the lack of funding for councils, the threat of reorganisation receded, was brought back again and has now receded again, but I expect it will be brought back again. It was as if the economic theory that predicts that an organisation may become less efficient if it becomes too large or that there are diseconomies of scale is unknown. Different services need a different method of joint working, and some are best carried out jointly, but most work best at the current local authority level. Examples of services that would benefit from a joint-working model based upon the regional footprint are transport, economic development and regional planning.
I’ve left the most difficult to last. I would welcome hearing the Minister explain how well Betsi Cadwaladr, NRW and the Welsh ambulance service are performing, because it seems to go counter to anything I’ve come across, having dealt with constituents who have had problems with them. Replacing chairs, boards and chief executives has not solved the problems at Betsi Cadwaladr. If you just keep thinking you can get a chair and a chief executive and everything will be all right—. I’ve lost count of the number of chairs and chief executives that Betsi Cadwaladr has had, and it has been run by the Welsh Government, and I don’t think anybody is going to get up and say, 'Now they’ve got it right.'
If you look at Betsi Cadwaladr in terms of support functions, primary care and secondary care, whilst the first two can work on the current footprint, secondary care needs to be split between east and west. On splitting the Welsh ambulance service so it is being run by the health boards, whilst I would normally say reorganisation is not the answer, in the case of the ambulance service, could reorganisation make anything worse? NRW makes no sense at all. Whilst the merger of the Countryside Council for Wales and the Environment Agency had some logic behind it, adding the Forestry Commission had none whatsoever.
Finally, looking for a regional model of services, no service, unless a national service, should cross the regional boundary. Fire and rescue should become four not three, with Powys and Ceredigion splitting off mid and west Wales. A Wales of four regions has been created, and we need to use this footprint for public services. We should look to right-size organisations, rather than making them bigger and bigger. I’ll end on this: does anybody think that the careers service has got better because there’s only one careers service for Wales, or do you think it’s got worse? I’m in the 'got worse' camp.

Alun Davies AC: I'm always grateful to Mike for his contributions to this. The worst mistake—I made many mistakes, but the worst mistake—I made as a Minister was to challenge Mike on local government financing and the intricacies of the council tax. The pain I suffered then, nearly a decade ago, stays with me every day of my life, and if I can't sleep at 3 o'clock in the morning, Mike comes back into my dreams—or my nightmares—and reminds me of my failures. And I'm grateful to you for that, Mike.
But, let me say this: perhaps the difference in approach that you and I take is that you think Wales is a big country with big organisations; I think Wales is a small country, and I think Wales has issues of small country governance. And that's entirely different, and I take a different view on those matters. One of the failures, if you like, of governance in Wales over the last 20 years is that we've never created a coherence in governance in Wales, and one of the reasons we've never done that is that all of us know that we've created too many organisations, too many structures, too many processes, too many committees, too many commissions but none of us are prepared to ask the difficult questions and to face up to that.
As a Minister, I asked a very senior Member of Plaid Cymru would they support the reorganisation of local government. Without taking a breath, that person said, 'Yes, absolutely, unequivocally, but you need to carve out Anglesey and you need to carve out Ceredigion.' I asked the same question of a very senior Member of the Conservative Party, 'Would you support the reorganisation of local government?' 'Yes, unequivocally, no issue at all, but you'd have to carve out Monmouthshire.' They didn't mention Aberconwy. And the Labour Government at the time, with one exception, was wholly in favour of the reorganisation of local government, and I often reflect on that. However, what I believe we need to do, and this is where I think there's a connection and I'm trying to reach out to find this connection with Mike, is that we need to create coherence in the governance of Wales, because we spend all of our time arguing about what comes up and down the M4, but we don't create coherence within the country. And for somebody like me, who wants to distribute greater powers outside of this Chamber, and outside of Cardiff, that means having the structures that can actually use and have the capacity to make the best use of those additional powers.
So, if we're serious about empowering communities up and down Wales, we have to have the structures and the means for funding those—structures that actually work for the people who live in those communities. And I don't believe we've done that. And I believe that all of us, wherever we sit in the Chamber—. I notice Jane Dodds is here, so I won't mention the embarrassment of my arguments with the Liberal Democrats on local government reorganisation where there was absolute agreement, but a wish to do it on a ward-by-ward basis. So, we would have 800 different conversations about wards that would sit in different authorities. We need to be serious about how we do that, and that means that, together, we need a coherent and an intelligent and a far-sighted and a less selfish debate.

I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government to reply to the debate—Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you, and thank you very much to Mike Hedges for bringing forward this interesting debate today and, of course, to Alun Davies for his thought-provoking comments as well.
How we work together across our public services is what makes us different here in Wales and it's the passion, determination and the care that we see from our public servants in Wales across local government, health, fire and rescue services, police forces and the other organisations involved in public service delivery that enable us to deliver those effective services for our people, and it's our approach of collaboration that makes it work. So, to me, in many ways, our relationships and ways of working are at least as important as the structures that we have in place to support them.
I know that Mike Hedges has previously said, and he, I think, repeated it again today, that change should only be considered where there's a very strong chance of improving service. And I think that was very much at the heart of his debate today. And I completely would agree with that.So, my focus is on taking advantage of the ability to be agile and to work as one Welsh public service. 'One Welsh public service' is a term that's been used in Wales now for several years, and there are many examples of the Welsh public sector coming together, irrespective of those organisational boundaries and responsibilities, to deliver better results for citizens, and I think we saw that most clearly during the COVID-19 pandemic.
The ethos of the one Welsh public service is something on which, of course, we continue to build, and the Welsh Government has an important leadership role to play, but we are one of many partners. So, we work with our colleagues across the Welsh public sector to further embed a culture that puts people at the heart of our collective efforts.Our priorities at this time, therefore, relate to further developing relationships and distributed leadership across public services. We have a really strong group of leaders at all levels of organisations, and effectiveness and efficiencies don't come from reorganisation, but from that clever joined-up working.
The review of strategic partnerships that was undertaken jointly by the WLGA, Welsh Government and the Welsh NHS Confederation, published in June 2020, concluded that there is no one-size-fits-all solution to partnership arrangements. The report also confirmed that a top-down restructure was not sought by partnership members, largely as it might damage successful solutions that were already happening in some areas. The recommendations from the review were clear that it's for local partnerships to lead on aligning partnerships in their area, with public services boards and regional partnership boards taking a strategic leadership role and the Welsh Government offering facilitation support.
There is a programme for government commitment to keep regional partnership arrangements under review, together with partners, to ensure that they're efficient. As part of this, I and the designated Member for Plaid Cymru, Cefin Campbell, are meeting with a range of strategic partnerships and will reflect on what we've heard, before sharing our conclusions with the Partnership Council for Wales. The underlying principle is that any changes are locally led, driven by what works best and based on local priorities and existing relationships.
The COVID pandemic will have led to some changes in how partnerships work, and, in some cases, the urgent need to work across organisational structures became a catalyst for more efficient, longer term joint working. COVID-19 and its effects on communities in Wales has revealed some stark contrasts, and public services will need to consider the social, economic, environmental and cultural impact of the pandemic, which, in many places, will be felt for years to come. PSBs will have an important role to play in considering and co-ordinating this longer term response, and we are supporting them to reflect on this. And more broadly, PSBs play a vital and valued role in bringing public services together in an area to identify and deliver against their shared priorities. So, mutual goals local leadership and existing relationships are so important in determining and delivering against local priorities. The quality and value of the conversations and the decisions that happen in PSBs and through other partnerships is a result of the investment and the commitment of the representatives and the organisations that they represent. Whatever structure public services are based on, partnership working in an integrated and collaborative way is always going to be essential. Ensuring that partnership structures are best aligned and effective is an ongoing task for all public services.
I know that Mike Hedges was not supportive of past proposals for major reorganisations of our local authorities to achieve larger councils, and he's outlined the reasons for that this afternoon, and I agree with him: our local authorities need us to support them in delivering their services and not distract them with plans for structural reorganisation. Instead, the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 has given us opportunities for a package of reform, including enabling voluntary mergers, if they wish to do so. But instead of looking to reorganise local authorities, we have worked with them to develop improved mechanisms for working together to deliver local government functions at a regional scale where it makes sense to do so.
Working closely with leaders, we've established four corporate joint committees—or CJCs—across Wales. These provide a consistent and democratically controlled framework, based on the four geographical areas of the city and growth deals. I know that Mike Hedges set out in his 2018 paper on public service structures that examples of services that would benefit from joint working are based on the regional footprint, our transport, economic development, and regional planning—and again, that's something that he's talked about this afternoon. So, through legislation, we've aligned these very functions identified by Mike Hedges within CJCs to provide an opportunity for regions to consider and capitalise on the interdependencies between them. This will allow local authority partners to deliver regional ambitions, develop successful regional economies, and encourage local growth.
So, to conclude, it's the relationships between people and across organisations that, together, deliver our public services in Wales. We are proudly one Welsh public service, and it's this ethos that underpins the behaviours and the culture that we want to see. Relationships transcend structures, and it's our combined passion to deliver high-quality, focused, and compassionate public services that is most important and most powerful.

10. Short Debate: Perinatal mental health services in the north of Wales: Presenting the case for improving perinatal health services and provision, including for Welsh-speaking families

Thank you, Minister. We will now move to our second short debate, and I call on Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to give time to Jane Dodds and to Rhun ap Iorwerth, and I very much look forward to hearing their contributions.
Maternity and childbirth are positive experiences for many of us, but in some circumstances, it can be a very challenging and difficult time, and in this evening’s short debate, I want to focus on the mental health issues that face some women, particularly those issues that are related to maternity and childbirth. We must ensure that perinatal mental health services are provided in an appropriate manner across Wales, putting the needs of women, their babies and their families at the heart of the conversation. The provision is not consistent across Wales, and I am concerned that many women in my constituency, and in north Wales more broadly, are suffering due to a lack of provision and resources.
Over one in 10 women develop mental illness during pregnancy or within the first year after the birth of their child. This is one of the most common health concerns experienced by pregnant mothers, and without the appropriate treatment, it can have a highly detrimental impact on the mental health of women and their babies, and can place families under huge amounts of strain. But with the right treatment and support, women and their families can get better and can cope.
May I turn first of all to community perinatal services? It is a requirement that every woman be allocated a designated health visitor and midwife to monitor any issues that arise and to provide her with support, including referral to the appropriate specialist perinatal services, according to need. I have not been satisfied that this referral happens consistently in the Betsi Cadwaladr health board area.

Siân Gwenllian AC: It is a cause of great concern that Betsi Cadwaladr health board has no budget set aside for low-level or moderate perinatal mental health services, even though £3 million has been allocated for this every year across Wales. This is a significant gap, and it's truly concerning. I ask the Deputy Minister to investigate this and to rectify the situation at once. This funding gap means that women are deteriorating very quickly, developing into serious cases, with significant implications for them and their families, but also financial implications.
This situation exists despite the commitment that improving perinatal mental health has been a priority of the Welsh Government since the previous Senedd term, following a report by the Children, Young People and Education Committee. A commitment was made that every health board would have an accessible community service, as well as a commitment to improve access to and the quality of perinatal mental health services.There are weaknesses in the community provision across Wales, which is having a detrimental impact on too many women and too many families. But, these failings are painfully clear in north Wales, so we must move at pace to rectify this.
I'm also aware of a lack of spaces for community appointments and that many of these take place in unsuitable settings. This means that it's difficult for Betsi Cadwaladr health board to meet the required standards, not to mention being very discouraging for the staff and women involved.
I now turn to services for the more serious cases. Five out of 100 pregnant women will develop a serious mental health condition. Between two and four out of every 1,000 women who have a child will require hospital care. A mother and baby unit is the appropriate place for this care to be received, but far too many women have to be treated on general psychiatric wards, and this means that they’re separated from their babies. This can only exacerbate the problem, surely.
We know that a unit has been opened in south Wales, and that is wonderful to see. It's time that we saw data on that unit. I would like to ask the Deputy Minister to publish any report produced as a result of a review of the unit since it opened in April 2021. The Government had committed to undertaking a review in April 2022, but, to date, I haven’t been able to access any publicly available data. So, I look forward eagerly to seeing these reports and data, as well as the outcomes and the lessons to be learned, as we discuss a unit for north Wales.
The Children, Young People and Education Committee’s report noted that an MBU in the south would not necessarily be appropriate for mothers and their families in mid and north Wales. It was noted that options should be discussed with NHS England, with a view to establishing a centre in the north-east—the north-east of Wales, that is—that would be able to serve mothers and their children on both sides of the border.The argument that we hear is that there aren’t enough cases in north and mid Wales to justify a dedicated unit for the area, but beds in such a unit could be filled through coming to an arrangement with health boards nearby that are part of NHS England.Unfortunately, the decision made was to continue with an eight-bed unit in England with access given to families from north Wales, rather than proceeding in the other way and in the way, indeed, that was recommended in the committee’s report.
I understand that the intention is to build a unit in Cheshire, which is expected to open in spring of next year, as I understand it. However, it is very difficult to find any further details on this development. The mention made is that thisunit will include two beds for women from north Wales, and that Betsi Cadwaladr health board could commission additional beds as demand increases. In my view, this is the incorrect model for meeting the needs of women in my constituency and beyond. It's the wrong model, when there was an alternative option of a model that would have been able to meet the needs in the same way.
Aside from the totally unrealistic distances that many mothers would have to travel, there is a further key and fundamental problem that arises in terms of meeting many families’ Welsh language needs. I can only begin to imagine how horrendous it would be to have to be far from home at such a time of vulnerability. If Welsh is your first language and it is, therefore, the natural medium of communication with your newborn baby, imagine how alienating that would feel in Cheshire, where the workforce would be monolingual English. If the unit were located in north Wales and it provided beds for women from England, there would be no language barrier or issue because Welsh speakers speak English too. So, we must give urgent attention to the linguistic element in the new model, if this is the model that will be pursued, or I'm afraid that the Government’s 'More than just words' strategy will be exposed as empty and meaningless. If it isn’t too late, I would ask the Deputy Minister to review the ill-advised decision to establish a unit for women from north Wales in England.
I have taken the opportunity in this short debate to outline the fundamental weaknesses in perinatal provision in north Wales, the deficiencies in community services, and the wholly inadequate and unsuitable model in the pipeline for serious cases. I do hope that the Government will take what I've said this evening seriously and will see that I'm trying to improve the situation. My hope is that, by putting this issue under the spotlight here in the Senedd, the Deputy Minister will ask her officials for an urgent report on the situation in north Wales, with firm recommendations for improving the situation for mothers, babies and families across north Wales. Thank you.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you to Siân Gwenllian for raising this most important issue.

Jane Dodds AS: This is an issue that we don't hear much about or discuss publicly. It demonstrates still the significant stigma around mental health, especially for new or expectant mothers. I know, through my own experience of being a child protection social worker, how devastating this is in relation not just to mothers but to fathers as well. So, to families, this issue is perhaps a shameful and stigmatising concern and we have to improve services to ensure that we identify those people and actually offer them the right services.My region covers part of Betsi Cadwaladr and Dwyfor Meirionnydd. Representing Mid and West Wales as well, we just need more facilities and more options for our women and parents who are facing significant issues once a baby's born.
The new 'Saving Lives, Improving Mothers’ Care' report shows that 18 per cent of all maternal deaths in the first year after a baby's birth are due to suicide, and postpartum psychosis is the leading cause of those deaths. The report found that 67 per cent of these suicides could have been prevented if there had been improvements in care. In April 2021, we know that the Uned Gobaith in Swansea opened, providing the first six mother and baby unit beds in Wales. But, that's in Swansea; we need more, and we need them certainly in north Wales. And there’s a really particular reason we need them in north Wales, and that’s because of the language.

Jane Dodds AS: Research has shown that expressing and discussing sensitive, emotional and complex issues such as mental health issues is a far easier experience, is more natural and is less frustrating if you’re able to do so in the language of your choice. For many Welsh speakers, doing that in English, never mind how fluent you are in that language, can be extremely difficult. Mental health patients often get more benefit from services provided through the medium of their language of choice, as there are no linguistic barriers to their expression. So, it’s hugely important that there is provision in north Wales, and that that takes account of the language used by the families affected.

Jane Dodds AS: Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, in their evidence to the Senedd committee inquiry on mental health inequalities, raised concerns that, despite the measures put in place to improve access to healthcare in Welsh, access to mental healthcare in Welsh remains poor. I do hope that the Minister will consider this issue and be able to respond to some of the concerns that have been raised. We need to make sure that families, when they have that baby, have the most wonderful experience, and we know that postpartum psychosis can really be such a devastating experience, and that we have the services both to identify and support prior to the birth and, if necessary, then continue after the birth, and they need to be fair and consistent across Wales. Thank you—diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you to Siân Gwenllian for bringing forward this very important subject at the Senedd today. I’d also like to thank and pay tribute to my former colleague and Member, Steffan Lewis, for the excellent work that he did in this field, shining a light on the need to ensure mental health support in the perinatal phase. Childbirth is an exciting time for many people, but it is a time that places a great deal of strain on others, and what we must ensure is that the level of service provided is sufficient and is consistent in all parts of Wales. It’s clear, as we’ve heard from Siân this evening, that there’s a lack of provision across the north of Wales in particular. I agree that the model, if it is the model we will have, of service provision over the border is the wrong one. We know that there’s an ongoing conversation about provision of cross-border services, and where expertise has been rooted for many years, such as in Alder Hey hospital, of course, there is an important relationship to foster there. But this is exactly the kind of service that we could and should be providing within north Wales, and why not offer services to those from over the border to come here? The linguistic element is such an important part of it—not just giving geographical proximity, but cultural proximity, at a time when people are at their most vulnerable. So, I too call on the Deputy Minister to ensure that we don’t let these women down at such an important time for them.

And I call on the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being to reply to the debate—Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank Siân Gwenllian for bringing forward this debate today? I know that Siân has a long-standing interest in and commitment to perinatal mental health. I’d also like to thank Jane and Rhun, who’ve contributed to the debate, and to recognise Rhun’s acknowledgement of the role that Steffan played in raising this issue up the agenda in the Senedd. It was incredibly important.
I also want to take this opportunity to restate my commitment to doing everything I can to ensure that mothers and families get the perinatal mental health support in Wales they need and deserve. As Siân knows, I chaired the Children, Young People and Education Committee’s inquiry into perinatal mental health in the last Senedd. I am acutely aware of how vital perinatal mental health support is, not just for mothers, but for the babies who are in that precious first 1,000 days of their life. We know that their development in that time can be critical for their lifelong life chances. I'm also committed to ensuring the recommendations that came from the inquiry are implemented.

Lynne Neagle AC: We are making significant progress, but we also recognise there is more to do, and we remain committed to improving perinatal mental health services, and this has been a priority area for action within our 'Together for Mental Health' delivery plan 2019-2022. We're now working on the development of the successor to the plan, and I can tell the Chamber that perinatal mental health will continue to be a priority in the successor plan. We will be engaging with the perinatal mental health network as we develop this work. As part of this, we'll also be looking to see how we can develop the pathway approach, recognising that specialist services are one element of this.
As part of our maternity and early years care and support, health boards already work with families as part of an early intervention approach. Every mother and family has a named midwife to support them in pregnancy and postnatally. This includes consideration of perinatal mental well-being, and pathways are in place for those who need a referral to specialist services. All health boards now have a specialist perinatal mental health midwife in post who can support mothers and families to ensure they receive the care and support they need.
Since 2015, we've invested in specialist perinatal mental health services across Wales, and, as a result, significant progress has been made in provision. There are now services in every health board area, and over £3 million of mental health service improvement funding is supporting these services annually. From a north Wales perspective, over £800,000 of this funding has been allocated to support perinatal mental health.I was really pleased to get the opportunity a while ago to visit the perinatal mental health team in north Wales. Their commitment to the mothers they support was palpable, and I want to pay tribute to them for the work they do day in, day out supporting mothers in north Wales.
Can I give Siân Gwenllian the commitment that I will look at what she has said today about the lower level support? It's not something that has been picked up in my conversations about perinatal mental health in north Wales, but I will pick that up with officials and provide you with a further update.
All health boards are also working towards meeting the relevant Royal College of Psychiatrists' quality standards, and we've also made service improvement funding available to support this work. Health boards have made good progress towards these standards, including in north Wales, but there is more work to be done to ensure the care provided is of the highest standard. In Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, services are currently compliant with 91 per cent of type 1 standards and 75 per cent of type 2 standards. Our national clinical lead for perinatal mental health is continuing to work with services to identify where there are gaps in meeting the standards, and to put plans in place to address this.Welsh Government continues to be committed to supporting services to meet these standards.
Common themes that have been identified for improvement include the provision of clinical space that is family orientated, which you've highlighted, adequate office space for teams, and the provision of information around carers' rights and advocacy. Over recent months, the all-Wales perinatal mental health clinical lead and the perinatal mental health network have developed a pathway of care. The aim of the pathways is to standardise practice, to provide clarity around roles and responsibilities, and reflect a preventative early intervention and evidence-based approach. As well as providing equity, these pathways should ensure that the right care is provided by the right people and at the right time.
As Members have highlighted, in April 2021 we opened a mother and baby unit within the Swansea Bay University Health Board area. This marked a really important step forward in providing improved perinatal mental health support for mothers in Wales. This centre is an important part of improving the experience of new mothers, as they will be able to get the specialist support they need for themselves and their babies closer to home. I was able to visit the south Wales MBU, our Uned Gobaith, last year. It was fantastic to meet the hugely committed team, but also to meet some mothers, who spoke really powerfully about the difference having MBU support had made to them.
The Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee have undertaken a review of the south Wales mother and baby unit, where it was agreed to continue to support the service on the current Tonna site, and to keep this under review. Whilst I am really pleased we have this service in south Wales, I recognise that this is too far away to be an appropriate service for women living in north Wales, and I am committed to providing provision closer to home for mothers in north Wales. The modelling undertaken in Wales has evidenced that we do not currently have enough demand to have a standalone unit in north Wales, and that's why we've been working with NHS England in order to develop a joint unit in north-west England that enables access to mothers from north Wales. As such, there continues to be significant engagement between Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee and NHS England regarding the development of this new unit.
The business case was signed off in December 2022 and we're expecting the service to be operational in summer 2024. I recognise that this is some time away, and officials are working with WHSSC to identify any opportunities to accelerate these timescalesif possible. We're also working with the provider to support the Welsh language needs of patients when developing the unit. And can I assure you, Siân, that I entirely recognise the importance of being able to communicate—and to Jane as well—through your first language when you are in the situation where you are needing such acute mental health support?
So, establishing this provision for north Wales will be a key priority over these coming months. I hope that this provides some reassurance to Members about the support that is currently available for mothers in north Wales and the progress that has been made on developing provision across Wales. I recognise—

Siân Gwenllian AC: Would you take an intervention?

Lynne Neagle AC: Yes.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Did you look at the alternative model, which was the one that the committee recommended in the report that you chaired—the alternative model of providing the unit in Wales, and therefore the Welsh language needs would be met and it would obviously be nearer to home for many women, rather than the model that is now on offer, which is going to create a lot of problems around the linguistic needs of mothers and their families? And to be honest, Chester is a really long way from Amlwch.

Lynne Neagle AC: Well, Siân, when I came into post, the plans for the unit over the border were already in train, with WHSSC having done a piece of analysis to identify the potential levels of need in north Wales. So, it was on that basis that the decision was taken to have the unit just over the border. And I know that Jane made the point about having these readily accessible services, but they are specialist services, so we would never be in a position where we'd have MBUs scattered all over the place in Wales. They're highly specialised, with multidisciplinary teams, and they serve the women who have the most acute problems—so, as Jane said, postpartum psychosis, which is incredibly serious. So, it preceded my time, the analysis of it, but that is my understanding of the work that was undertaken to identify need. And from my point of view, Siân, I want there to be a service now as quickly as we can get it, and scrapping everything that's been done would be a very lengthy process, and I want the women in north Wales to have access to a service as soon as we possibly can.
I recognise that, despite the strong work that has been undertaken by services, there is more to do, and we need to make further progress to ensure that services are of the high standard that mothers in Wales deserve. This includes the work to ensure that mother and baby unit provision meets the needs of mothers in north Wales. I look forward to working together to further develop perinatal mental health services in Wales. Diolch.

I thank the Deputy Minister. And that brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:45.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government

James Evans: What assessment has the Minister made of the number of personnel within local authorities who are paid under the IR35 off-payroll working rules?

Rebecca Evans: Decisions on the employment of staff or contraction of workers are for individual local authorities. They are also responsible for determining whether the off-payroll rules apply.

Darren Millar: What action is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that North Wales receives a fair share of Welsh Government spending?

Rebecca Evans: The core revenue funding that we provide to local authorities each year, including those in north Wales, is distributed according to relative need, using a formula that takes into account information on the demographic, physical, economic and social characteristics of authorities. There is good evidence that this formula distributes a fair share of Welsh Government spending to each local authority.

Peredur Owen Griffiths: What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change about ensuring enough money is available to local authorities to mitigate the effects of adverse weather?

Rebecca Evans: I discussed the need to reduce emissions and adapt to the impacts of climate change with the Minister for Climate Change and other Ministers, as part of the Government’s budget consideration.

Questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd

Mark Isherwood: How is the Minister promoting rural development in North Wales?

Lesley Griffiths: The current rural development programme has a dedicated Wales rural network team that promotes all projects and shares best practice in rural development on a pan-Wales basis.

Rhys ab Owen: Will the Minister make a statement regarding rural development fund spending in South Wales Central?

Lesley Griffiths: The rural development programme continues to invest in projects that benefit our natural environment while supporting rural businesses and communities across Wales.

Altaf Hussain: What recent discussions has the Minister held with colleagues in local government about the actions they can take to improve animal welfare?

Lesley Griffiths: Our animal welfare plan and programme for government includes two actions related to the Welsh Government-funded local authority enforcement project. My officials are in regular contact with local government colleagues regarding this work and wider animal welfare developments.

Samuel Kurtz: How is the Welsh Government seeking to improve access to urban community green spaces across Wales?

Lesley Griffiths: High-quality green spaces and parks provide opportunities for healthy recreation, support biodiversity and reduce air pollution. The Welsh Government’s Local Places for Nature programme and enabling natural resources and well-being grant have funded the creation of hundreds of local spaces. Our green flags award scheme also drives up quality.